The Night Cometh (user search)
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Author Topic: The Night Cometh  (Read 6178 times)
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shua
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« on: April 27, 2012, 12:28:14 AM »

A person cannot work during the night because it is dark. That is the obvious meaning. The interpretation is seen in the next verse, which completes the thought: "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."  Jesus had to do the work while he was here. It did not matter that it was the Sabbath, because his time was short.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus says he will leave, but will send another Advocate, the Holy Spirit to remain with them forever. As he says later, "Little children, I am with you only a little while longer."(13:33)
The event alluded to here is not the rapture, but the end of Jesus' life on earth. The context here is not any kind of law, but the healing ministry of the physically present Christ  - the healing he accomplishes through his own body, as seen by his saliva and hands healing the blind man.
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
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Posts: 25,689
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Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

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« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2012, 12:19:13 AM »
« Edited: May 01, 2012, 12:23:09 AM by shua, gm »

A person cannot work during the night because it is dark. That is the obvious meaning. The interpretation is seen in the next verse, which completes the thought: "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."  Jesus had to do the work while he was here. It did not matter that it was the Sabbath, because his time was short.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus says he will leave, but will send another Advocate, the Holy Spirit to remain with them forever. As he says later, "Little children, I am with you only a little while longer."(13:33)
The event alluded to here is not the rapture, but the end of Jesus' life on earth...

1) I’m not interested in starting a Godhead debate, but I hope we can agree that when a believer has the Holy Spirit, he also has the Spirit of Jesus Christ, thus Jesus’ presence is still on earth.

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

2) If Jesus were simply referring to his death as the reason he would be incapable of working, then why did he say “The night cometh when no one can work" instead of “when I can not work”?

What does it say at the beginning of the Gospel of John? "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."  Jesus is not present in the world in the same sense when he has died or has ascended.  That is not to say that Jesus is absent wholly, but the difference between the time Jesus is saying these words and what will come after is clear enough. I think it's important when reading the Gospel of John to take these concepts as presented in the Gospel of John, and not introduce external concepts like the rapture. 
Jesus is using a general statement to say something about his work. During the night, no one can work. This applies to Jesus in that for him, the night is coming soon, and so he must do his work while it is still day -as we all must. 
In this passage, Jesus is going against the Sabbath regulations in healing the blind man. Even though it is the Sabbath it is day. And so a law against something is not going to make it night.
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shua
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Posts: 25,689
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 03:52:21 PM »

analogy: similarity between two things in some aspect which are in other aspects dissimilar.  The analogy is between the presence of light and the physical presence of Christ.

If you want to say that the work of Jesus must come to a stop because it will be against the law, that isn't supported by this text, since the law clearly isn't stopping Jesus.
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shua
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Posts: 25,689
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E: 1.29, S: -0.70

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 04:38:54 PM »

Well, the statement about no man being able to work in the night was pretty obvious prior to Thomas Edison, though it's meaning isn't because it points to his death and the reason for his healing on the Sabbath.

Compare Jn 12:34
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shua
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E: 1.29, S: -0.70

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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 01:20:05 PM »

It's clear from John 12:34 that the idea that the Messiah would die is not a trivial or obvious statement.
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
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Posts: 25,689
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2012, 10:50:19 PM »

We can at least agree at this point that the night mentioned here has nothing to do with Christianity being outlawed, right?

Jmfsct how would you interpret Jn 13:33?
"Little children I am with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and as I said to the Jews so I now say to you 'Where I am going you cannot come."
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shua
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Posts: 25,689
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E: 1.29, S: -0.70

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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2012, 02:54:06 AM »

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He is obviously referring to his death separating himself from his disciples.  But, just as obvious, in the very next chapter (John ch 14), he is not saying he is going away for long, but will come back to them shortly in the form of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, that is my understanding as well. I believe John 9:4 is referring to the same event, and that his return after his absence is revealed only gradually.


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I don't think the verse itself is illogical in that interpretation. 
I just think that by looking at the Gospel of John as a whole, it makes the most sense as referring to his death or his physical absence.
The coming end of Jesus' life on earth is hinted to in John 12:8 "You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me." Then in Jn 12:32-36, Jesus talks about the Son of Man being lifted up (in crucifixion), and says he is the light who "will be with you a little while longer." 
The death of Christ is central to the narrative. The Gospel is true but it is also literature, and it builds up to a denouement.

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Yes, you make a good point here, and are making me rethink this slightly.
I think it has both these meanings at once, since Jesus is expressing the day as the time he has to be present in the world and at work, and the night as his death (common to everyone) and removal.  This is a tricky passage for sure.  What makes it especially tricky is that in some versions the subject is "I" and in others it is "we." But there's a sense of urgency here that leads me to believe it refers to something close at hand.

Here's how I read it within the larger context of John:   Jesus is alive, and it is day, and he must do the work he was sent for.   Jesus leaves in his death, and it is night.  But then it is revealed that the  night is not permanent.   Jesus returns, and he commissions his disciples to continue his work.
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
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*****
Posts: 25,689
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2012, 11:52:06 PM »

I do not see how this passage could be talking about belief or converting people to belief.  God's work here is the healing in a direct and physical sense that Jesus is doing.

It may be easy to see the time in the tomb as not much of anything, but really it was momentous. It really was night, and there was a sense of finality. You have to look at it from a pre-resurrection perspective to understand it. Jesus was preparing his disciples for this, and his time beforehand was precious.
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,689
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 08:13:25 PM »

I do not see how this passage could be talking about belief or converting people to belief.  God's work here is the healing in a direct and physical sense that Jesus is doing.

Ok, this has been a good discussion.  I feel that you are one of the few on here that make an honest effort to allow scripture to interpret scripture.  But, that was the weakest point you’ve made so far, for you are contradicting your previous request to use the gospel of John to interpret the terminology of John, for it defines point blank the “works of God” as bringing people to a belief in Jesus Christ, which is exactly what the Great Commission is all about.
I am getting my definition of the works of God from the previous verse, when he begins to answer his disciples "he was born blind so that God's works might be revealed in him."  Belief does not require that he be born blind, however the physical healing in this passage does.
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