Final question: Washington stolen?

[2952-0-0]

No partisanship, please.

[Alcon]

No partisanship, please.

Request of the year.

No, nothing organized. Did Rossi win? Who knows. But, if it was "stolen," it was more accidentally picked up.

[J. J.]

No partisanship, please.

Request of the year.

No, nothing organized. Did Rossi win? Who knows. But, if it was "stolen," it was more accidentally picked up.

I have to agree with Alcon.  No, you can not claim it was stolen.  The result may end up being wrong and possibly reversed, but I can see no massive effort on the part of Democrats to "steal" it.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

no, just terribly horribly f'ed up

[Platypus]

just really really close, I think.

[Gabu]

To this day I've seen no convincing evidence that there was massive and/or concentrated voter fraud on the part of Democrats in that election.  I don't think that it was stolen.

[A18]

No, not stolen.

[CARLHAYDEN]

No partisanship, please.

If King county had followed the procedures set forth in the administrative code for elections, it seems likely that Rossi would have prevailed even in the hand recount.

The question therefor becomes WHY they didn't follow clearly written procedures?

Some will argue that it is a simple matter that the Kings county election organization is incompetent.  If so, will they support the changes currently being urged (among them, to put the elections division under the elected County Audior, as occurs in every other county in the state).

Based on my knowledge of Dean Logan, and the numberous bizarre actions of the King county elections division, I suspect that the election was indeed stolen. 

I think that Rossi will be able to prove in court that there were more votes counted than there were legitimate votes, and that the number of of illegitimate votes counted exceed the 'victoryt' margin of Gregoire.

While proving 'intent' may become difficult (although if a criminal prosecution subsequently ensues, one of the participants may turn states evidence to avoid prosecution), it seems to me that where following clear procedures would have prevented the illegitimate votes being counted, and the failure to follow those procedures, is at least gross negligence.

[J. J.]

I think that Rossi will be able to prove in court that there were more votes counted than there were legitimate votes, and that the number of of illegitimate votes counted exceed the 'victoryt' margin of Gregoire.

Before we proclaim a "stolen election," "fraud" or demand a revote, let's see it this can be determined.

[bgwah]

On the news they said Washington state had a 1% margin of error for elections, and that was one of the lowest in the countries.

Whatever, we won't know who really got more votes.

[The Duke]

Of course it was stolen.  There will always be those who want to maintain the illusion that all elections are legitimate, and that no one wants to undermine democracy at home, but this is evidently false, and numerous real life instances show this not to be true.

[Schmitz in 1972]

My response? It was certainly stolen, but the Republicans were wrong to have challenged the results. By continuing to prolong the election they were only hurting Washington and themselves. Some are talking of Gregoire being ousted from the governorship and Rossi being instated due to recent discoveries of sham in King county. That's just horrible, JUST LET IT GO!

[BobOMac2k2]

Oh course not.

And if it was stolen, by no means should they just let it go.

[Smash255]

No partisanship, please.

If King county had followed the procedures set forth in the administrative code for elections, it seems likely that Rossi would have prevailed even in the hand recount.

The question therefor becomes WHY they didn't follow clearly written procedures?

Some will argue that it is a simple matter that the Kings county election organization is incompetent.  If so, will they support the changes currently being urged (among them, to put the elections division under the elected County Audior, as occurs in every other county in the state).

Based on my knowledge of Dean Logan, and the numberous bizarre actions of the King county elections division, I suspect that the election was indeed stolen. 

I think that Rossi will be able to prove in court that there were more votes counted than there were legitimate votes, and that the number of of illegitimate votes counted exceed the 'victoryt' margin of Gregoire.

While proving 'intent' may become difficult (although if a criminal prosecution subsequently ensues, one of the participants may turn states evidence to avoid prosecution), it seems to me that where following clear procedures would have prevented the illegitimate votes being counted, and the failure to follow those procedures, is at least gross negligence.

Without the whole Kings Counbty situation Rossi still trailed by 10

[The Vorlon]

I don't think it was "stolen" - I just think the result is well within the margin of error of the election process - kinda like Florida in 2000.

This is a good time for me to bring up the key point in election reform that folks always miss and that is that for an election to be truly fair the method of voting must be the same in each region.

The various voting methods, optical scanners, punch cards, etc all have different "under vote" rates ie the percentage of votes that do not register.

I doesn't matter what this undervote rate is BTW - as long as it is the same in all regions.

Punch cards is typically about 2% or so, optical scanners 0.5% or so...

To use the Washington example, King county had +/- 600K votes cast, which went about 60/40 for Gregorie.

Lets say King used a technology with a 0.5% undervote

on 600K votes this would imply 3000 "undervotes" which if they spit 60/40 would have cost Gregorie a net of 600 votes.

Now lets flip to an alternative universe when King used a technology that had 2% undervote:

600K would now imply 12000 undervotes or a net loss of 2400 votes for Gregorie.

In an election decided by 122 votes, Gregories "victory" was the consequence of the choice of voting technologies in the various places as much as anything else.

In 2000 Bush didn't "steal" Florida, the random error in the process smiled his way and he became President.

Gregorie didn't "steal" Washington in 2004, the random error in the system smiled her way and she became Governor.

[J. J.]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to need evidence before I yell that either Gregorie "stole" the election or that she was "smiled upon" by the system.

I really doubt it was "stolen," though perhaps "screwed up."  Even then, that doesn't mean Gregorie didn't win.

[The Vorlon]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to need evidence before I yell that either Gregorie "stole" the election or that she was "smiled upon" by the system.

I really doubt it was "stolen," though perhaps "screwed up."  Even then, that doesn't mean Gregorie didn't win.

When I said "smiled up" I did not mean to imply anything illegal, just simply random.

For example, the first time you run punchcard ballots through the scanners, about 2% wil not read due to incompletetly punched chadsand other factors.

If you run them though again about another 0.5% will read as the handling of the cards dislodges a few more chads and "new" votes are read by the machine.

Lets say we have 1 million punch cards and on the second pass an additional 0.5% get read for a total of 5000 "new" votes.

If we assume the electorate was perfectly evenly divided (in washington, this is accurate to many decimal places!) the psudo random generation of the new ballots will produce "about" 2500 new votes for each candidate, but due to pure random fluxuation this 2500 with be +/- 175 votes or so either way just on pure random chance.

This +/- 175 votes exceeds the margin of victory, so the victory its self is within the margin of error.

This does not mean in any way the election if invalid or fradulent, it just simply states that the margin of error in our measurement of the electorate exceeds the margin of victory.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Here's an update:

GOP says it found 300 illegal votes

By David Postman

Seattle Times chief political reporter

TUKWILA — The state Republican Party said in court papers filed yesterday that it has found 300 illegal votes and more than 400 that can't be verified in the governor's election.

With Christine Gregoire winning the governor's race by 129 votes, Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance says he now has found far more than enough evidence to persuade a judge to nullify the election and call for a rematch between Gregoire and Republican Dino Rossi.

Lawyers and Republican staffers are continuing to look county by county for votes cast by felons, in the name of dead people or by people who voted more than once, casting second votes either in other counties or other states.

"I expect this number to literally grow every day," Vance said.

Democrats are unconcerned. Their attorneys have argued that Republicans should have challenged improperly registered voters before the election.

Republicans have identified 240 felons who voted illegally. Party workers have been comparing the state's criminal-history database from the State Patrol to a list of voters kept by the Office of the Secretary of State.

The bulk of those are in King County. Vance said there appears to be so many felons who voted in the county that "we will probably never get to the bottom of this list."

He also said the party has identified 44 votes cast under the name of dead people, 10 voters who voted twice in the state and six who voted here and in another state.

Vance claimed the Republicans had found 737 illegal votes, but 437 of those are mishandled provisional ballots. Those ballots were supposed to be kept separate on Election Day but instead were put in counting machines without being verified.   
 
 
The party has not released the names of the people they say cast illegal votes — such as felons and double voters — but it will have to do that before a trial begins.

Yesterday, Republican lawyers filed their responses to Democratic Party motions to have the case dismissed. Republicans dispute the Democrats' arguments that the Legislature, not the court, should hear the dispute and that the court doesn't have authority to call for a new election.

Republicans also argue that they don't need to show which candidate got the illegal votes, only that there were enough to cloud the results.

[Platypus]

Carl-how do you KNOW how the possibly illegal voters voted?

Whilst one assumes the felons voted for the Democrats, you can't KNOW, and therefore they don't have a case on those grounds, imho.

[CARLHAYDEN]

No one can KNOW how they voted.

We do KNOW that they should NOT have voted.

It is certainly possible that they may have voted by sufficent margin to 'elect' Gregoire.

BTW, there are more developments in progress.

In North Carolina they are having a redo for Agriculture Commissioner because an honest error MAY have affected the election result.

Why is Gregoire so afraid of a redo?

Look at the polls.

[ATFFL]

No one can KNOW how they voted.

We do KNOW that they should NOT have voted.

It is certainly possible that they may have voted by sufficent margin to 'elect' Gregoire.

BTW, there are more developments in progress.

In North Carolina they are having a redo for Agriculture Commissioner because an honest error MAY have affected the election result.

Why is Gregoire so afraid of a redo?

Look at the polls.

The revote in NC is off.  The elections board is dragging its feet in deciding how to keep Troxler out of office now.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/4076794/detail.html

Of course we also know in NC who cast the votes that were deleted.  Enough of them have signed affadavits affirming they voted for Troxler to make his election a mathematical certainty.

[J. J.]

He also said the party has identified 44 votes cast under the name of dead people, 10 voters who voted twice in the state and six who voted here and in another state.

This is probably the key, if it could be verified.  I will note that these numbers are 55.  If ten people voted twice, one of their two votes was legitimate.  Gregoire would still win by 74 votes.

Now, the question if under WA law, can convicted felons vote at some point; they can in PA.

The provisionals were improperly mixed in, but that does votes show that they were votes cast by people not entitled to vote.  Some, if not all, of the people casting provisional ballots may have been legitimate voters.  That can be checked and the GOP here has not even claimed that they were not.

Now, I hate to say it, but there is precedent in WA for a revote; I'm not happy about it, but it is there and has been for more than 25 years.  If it could be shown that there were more illegal votes, i.e. votes cast by people who were not legally entitled to vote, a revote might be a possible solition.

In that light, I would ask if there in any WA constitutional provision relating to the governor's race?

[J. J.]

Here is Article III of WA Constitution:

SECTION 4 RETURNS OF ELECTIONS, CANVASS, ETC. The returns of every election for the officers named in the first section of this article shall be sealed up and transmitted to the seat of government by the returning officers, directed to the secretary of state, who shall deliver the same to the speaker of the house of representatives at the first meeting of the house thereafter, who shall open, publish and declare the result thereof in the presence of a majority of the members of both houses. The person having the highest number of votes shall be declared duly elected, and a certificate thereof shall be given to such person, signed by the presiding officers of both houses; but if any two or more shall be highest and equal in votes for the same office, one of them shall be chosen by the joint vote of both houses. Contested elections for such officers shall be decided by the legislature in such manner as shall be determined by law. The terms of all officers named in section one of this article shall commence on the second Monday in January after their election until otherwise provided by law.


Now, a couple of points.  The legislature has to act via statute; it can't just pass a resolution.

Second, in establishing the statute for contested elections, which the courts have determined permit revoting, did they include these "officers."  That would include the Governor.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Suggest you read the following article:

Saturday, February 05, 2005

Judge might void election, won't order new one

By David Postman

Seattle Times chief political reporter

Chelan County Superior Court Judge John Bridges presiding yesterday.
 
WENATCHEE — The Republican court challenge to the election of Gov. Christine Gregoire will move toward trial after Judge John Bridges yesterday rejected Democratic motions to dismiss the case or move it to the Legislature or the state Supreme Court.

It goes forward, though, minus most of the defendants in the case. Bridges dismissed all the state's counties and their auditors from the lawsuit.

Bridges said in Chelan County Superior Court that allegations in the lawsuit filed by Republican candidate Dino Rossi and Republican voters, if proved at trial, would be sufficient to overturn the election. And he denied a Democratic motion to limit any challenge to issues of fraud and illegal votes, saying misconduct or neglect by election officials would also be sufficient grounds for setting aside the election.

"This case should go forward, at least at this point," Bridges said.

But the judge said even if Republicans prove their case, he won't give Rossi what he has said he wants from the court: a new election.

Democrats argued he didn't have that power, and Bridges agreed.

Attorneys for the state Democratic Party said after yesterday's hearing that the only remaining option if Republicans prove their case would be for Bridges to declare Rossi the winner and remove Gregoire from office. But Rossi has said all along that he would only take office if he won a second election, and he does not want a judge to declare him the winner.

But Bridges dismissed the remedy requested by Rossi. Still remaining in the lawsuit is Rossi's call to have the judge nullify the November election. That, Republicans say, would create a vacancy in the office that could be filled by a special election ordered by the Legislature.

That's one of several areas where Republican and Democratic attorneys took different messages from Bridges' rulings from the bench.

Both sides predicted the other would appeal some of Bridges' rulings.   
 
"We're dancing and they're crying," said Republican Party attorney Mark Braden. "I didn't hear us lose anything."

Said Democratic Party attorney Jenny Durkan: "We got everything we wanted."

Democrats lost their motions to have the case dismissed, narrowed or transferred to the Supreme Court. But Durkan said Rossi can't get what he wants — the new election that has been promoted by pro-Rossi groups.

"No revote is possible," Durkan said, "www.revote.org is out of business."

When asked about the series of Democratic motions rejected by Bridges, Durkan said, "Watch who appeals. That'll tell you who got what they wanted."

A major issue that appeared less than settled yesterday was whether Republicans would have to show that each illegal vote they find was cast for Gregoire and that they can find enough to erase her 129-vote victory margin.

Democrats argue that that's the standard set in law. Republicans have said they only need to show there were enough illegal votes to make the true results of the election unknown.

Bridges said that at least at this point in the case, it is "sufficient to state generally" that there are enough illegal votes to cast doubt on the true outcome of the election.

But the judge cited a 1912 state Supreme Court case often mentioned by Democrats. In that case, the court found that if it is unknown which candidate received an illegal vote, "it must be treated as a legitimate vote."

Bridges also said it "may be problematical for petitioners to ultimately prevail on a theory or a cause of illegal votes."

Republican attorneys say they don't take any of that to mean they have to prove, for example, who got the votes of the hundreds of felons they allege cast ballots in November.

In fact, attorney Rob Maguire said Republicans could argue that illegal votes should be apportioned by the same split as the vote in a specific precinct, broken down between Rossi and Gregoire.

Bridges heard arguments on a number of motions yesterday and ruled quickly from the bench.

"I read a lot of pages in the last two weeks; until my brain felt like mush," he told the attorneys.

Durkan told the judge his ruling to keep the case alive in his court was a "historic event."

Bridges seemed to want to tread lightly.

He said it is clear that a lot more election contests have been rejected than have succeeded because there are well-accepted reasons why elections should not be overturned.

"Do we as voters and as constituents and candidates want to engage in what one judge referred to as seasons of discontent commencing the moment after the polls closed on election day?" Bridges asked.

The case will get easier to administer for Bridges and his overworked court staff. Yesterday, he dismissed from the case the remaining counties (several were dismissed earlier), their auditors and King County Elections Director Dean Logan. That leaves the secretary of state's office as the main respondent.

Yesterday, attorneys for counties including King and Pierce told Bridges that Republicans had not shown why local officials needed to be in the case.

Bridges agreed and referred to the cumbersome process of dealing with scores of attorneys in the courtroom by telephone.

"I can't see where their involvement ... is necessarily helpful to the court and probably in the efficient administration of justice they are ... more burdensome," Bridges said.

Republicans had argued that mistakes in counting, including failing to reconcile post-election voter lists, was evidence enough to warrant including counties in their case.

But attorneys for the counties said there was little if any evidence of wrongdoing.

Daniel Hamilton, Pierce County's deputy prosecuting attorney, told Bridges, "There has been no showing that the auditor has done anything wrong in Pierce County, and I think that is probably true for the vast majority of counties."

Republican allegations of errors by the counties remain the heart of the lawsuit. County officials, including auditors and election officials, could still be subpoenaed to testify, and the counties will still be expected to provide information to Republicans as they seek evidence to show the election was flawed.

For the counties, Bridges' ruling means their prosecutors won't have to appear in court representing them as respondents. And they won't be served with the voluminous court documents, which some small-county officials have blamed for crashing their computer systems.

-------

The bottom line is that it appears that Rossi will have the opportunity to prove that there were more illegal votes cast than the 'margin' of Gregoire's 'victory.'  However, that may not necessarily result in the nullification of the election results.  If that occurs, then the Democrats may temporarily retain the Govenor's chair but will pay a heavy price with the public for that 'victory' (the polls I have previously cited show that the Washington public believes the election is illegitimate).

[Frodo]

Governor's second in command is in spotlight during election dispute

By REBECCA COOK
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

OLYMPIA -- Walking into the state Capitol last week, a group told the security guard they were there to visit Brad Owen.

"Oh, is he one of the senators?" the guard asked.

Owen tells the story with typical self-deprecating wit. Obscurity is an occupational hazard when you're the state's lieutenant governor.
 
But Owen's profile is rapidly rising as the legal challenge to the governor's election heads toward a trial.

If Republican Dino Rossi succeeds in his challenge of Democratic Gov. Christine Gregoire -- a big "if" -- a court could nullify the 2004 election, creating a vacancy in the governor's office and making Owen the temporary governor until a new election is held.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/211891_gowen14.html

it seems like it never ends.......