Jews Increasingly Questioning Circumcision Ritual
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 03:48:10 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: World politics is up Schmitt creek)
  Jews Increasingly Questioning Circumcision Ritual
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Jews Increasingly Questioning Circumcision Ritual  (Read 1941 times)
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,511
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: December 29, 2013, 01:14:31 AM »

A small but growing number of Jews are questioning the ancient ritual of circumcision

By Michelle Boorstein, Published: December 28

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 01:25:02 AM »

Two things that annoy the hell out of me:

-Militant anti-circumcision people that are so common on the internet and so rare in reality.
-People doing things like this just because of "tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that.

So in this case good. Also shows that convincing people not to do circumcision if you don't like it is better done through other methods than frothing screaming and absurd comparisons to genital mutilation.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 01:31:07 AM »

The Jewish understanding of something that God told them to do in Genesis really shouldn't be reduced to '"tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that'. It's not the same as the Irish Catholicism thing, it's really not.

Having said that, it definitely makes sense that Reform and Conservative Jews would be having these conversations nowadays, and I'm generally supportive of this kind of dialogue within the religion or culture concerned.
Logged
Deus Naturae
Deus naturae
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,637
Croatia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 01:46:30 AM »

Isn't the Abrahamic covenant, like, the basis of the entire Jewish religion? I don't really get why they would want to get rid of one of their most ancient and important practices for no real benefit other than penile aesthetics.
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 01:49:20 AM »

The Jewish understanding of something that God told them to do in Genesis really shouldn't be reduced to '"tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that'. It's not the same as the Irish Catholicism thing, it's really not.

It is if the Jews in question don't really practice any other aspects of Judaism and don't keep kosher/observe the Sabbath/holy days, etc. Like the vast majority of American ethnic Jews.
Logged
Hatman 🍁
EarlAW
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,978
Canada


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 09:11:50 AM »

Two things that annoy the hell out of me:

-Militant anti-circumcision people that are so common on the internet and so rare in reality.
-People doing things like this just because of "tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that.

So in this case good. Also shows that convincing people not to do circumcision if you don't like it is better done through other methods than frothing screaming and absurd comparisons to genital mutilation.

When did BRTD become a moderate hero?
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 10:49:44 AM »

I'm a Moderate Hero on this issue. Being attacked for saying that I don't care about being circumcised and that I don't feel "mutilated" doesn't exactly endear me to the other side. Might I also add the idiocy of the radical feminist on DU who tried to argue using some BS psuedo-science crap that circumcision makes men more likely to rape.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 11:51:04 AM »

The Jewish understanding of something that God told them to do in Genesis really shouldn't be reduced to '"tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that'. It's not the same as the Irish Catholicism thing, it's really not.

It is if the Jews in question don't really practice any other aspects of Judaism and don't keep kosher/observe the Sabbath/holy days, etc. Like the vast majority of American ethnic Jews.

Most American Jews have historically been on a sliding scale of observance, with relatively few either completely observant or completely nonobservant. The fact that the circumcision ritual is one that far more than not have kept, even otherwise generally nonobservant ones, means that I think you're underestimating just how much of a group marker this is. It's one of the first things that God requires of Abraham, predating the kosher laws and holy days--at least in the Biblical narrative--by quite a lot. I know you don't agree with this but it's not 'idiotic bulls[inks]' even to the extent that the Ireland thing (which is also about group markers that you have some difficulty understanding, much less having sympathy for) is.
Logged
afleitch
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,837


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 02:45:32 PM »

This probably won't help;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2530755/Jewish-Rabbi-sued-accidentally-SEVERING-newborn-baby-boys-penis-Bris-Ceremony.html
Logged
Хahar 🤔
Xahar
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,731
Bangladesh


Political Matrix
E: -6.77, S: 0.61

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2014, 12:17:23 AM »

The Jewish understanding of something that God told them to do in Genesis really shouldn't be reduced to '"tradition" and idiotic bulls[inks] like that'. It's not the same as the Irish Catholicism thing, it's really not.

It is if the Jews in question don't really practice any other aspects of Judaism and don't keep kosher/observe the Sabbath/holy days, etc. Like the vast majority of American ethnic Jews.

Most American Jews have historically been on a sliding scale of observance, with relatively few either completely observant or completely nonobservant. The fact that the circumcision ritual is one that far more than not have kept, even otherwise generally nonobservant ones, means that I think you're underestimating just how much of a group marker this is. It's one of the first things that God requires of Abraham, predating the kosher laws and holy days--at least in the Biblical narrative--by quite a lot. I know you don't agree with this but it's not 'idiotic bulls[inks]' even to the extent that the Ireland thing (which is also about group markers that you have some difficulty understanding, much less having sympathy for) is.

Religious practice among American Jews has always fascinated me, largely because it differs greatly from American Christian (particularly Protestant) belief, which tends to focus on faith rather than ritual observance. I have friends who are irreligious but keep kosher nevertheless, and that is more familiar to me on an intellectual level than are people whose professed religious faith involves no behavioral modification. Behavioral modification is simply a far more important part of American Judaism than of American Christianity, and circumcision is an example of that.
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 05:24:05 PM »

I like this idea of looking at behavioral modification vis a vis religious belief. Tell me more.
Logged
Meursault
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 771
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 07:06:58 PM »

I deeply resent that I, a non-Jew, was circumcised mainly because my grandfather subscribed to an inferior desert religion. I will never stop hating Abrahamism for this.
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 09:10:44 PM »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 10:43:34 PM »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.

Whoooa, easy there, sport! Hold your horses! Cool your jets! Don't hitch your wagon to a star!
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 11:29:10 PM »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.

Whoooa, easy there, sport! Hold your horses! Cool your jets! Don't hitch your wagon to a star!
I suppose the above quote will suffice when too lazy to form an actual rebuttal. Or when the situation is so clear cut that no reasonal rebuttal is plausible. Or are you actually going to defend routinely altering the genitals of babies just because religion says so?
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2014, 11:46:05 PM »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.

Whoooa, easy there, sport! Hold your horses! Cool your jets! Don't hitch your wagon to a star!
I suppose the above quote will suffice when too lazy to form an actual rebuttal. Or when the situation is so clear cut that no reasonal rebuttal is plausible. Or are you actually going to defend routinely altering the genitals of babies just because religion says so?

It will suffice when my interlocutor is literally arguing for criminalizing an important ritual of at least one major religion, because sarcastic use of old-person cliches and posting in the Sage Garden without remark are all that such a stupefyingly disgusting suggestion deserves. On further reflection, should instead have said 'Poo-tee-weet?', but oh well, it's too late now.
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 12:00:44 AM »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.

Whoooa, easy there, sport! Hold your horses! Cool your jets! Don't hitch your wagon to a star!
I suppose the above quote will suffice when too lazy to form an actual rebuttal. Or when the situation is so clear cut that no reasonal rebuttal is plausible. Or are you actually going to defend routinely altering the genitals of babies just because religion says so?

It will suffice when my interlocutor is literally arguing for criminalizing an important ritual of at least one major religion, because sarcastic use of old-person cliches and posting in the Sage Garden without remark are all that such a stupefyingly disgusting suggestion deserves. On further reflection, should instead have said 'Poo-tee-weet?', but oh well, it's too late now.
Gotcha. You're not going to defend cutting off parts of babies genitals, even as some babies die from the procedure and others catch nasty diseases because the superstitious monsters who perfom the procedures sometimes don't have enough common sense to follow basic hygiene standards. Instead, you're just going to hide behind religion, which is exactly what I suspected you would. Never mind the horrid ethics involved. No thoughtful reflection required. It's a "religion", so game over. If millions of men must silently suffer with parts of their penises missing, that's a small price to pay so that you can smugly pat yourself on the back for blindly believing that religion must never be questioned because it is more important than personal autonomy.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 12:03:59 AM »
« Edited: June 16, 2014, 12:06:08 AM by asexual trans victimologist »

Of all the myriad cases where a mainstream religion gets a free pass and people refuse to pass judgement because religion exists in a realm where critical thinking and reason dare not trespass, routine male genital disfigurement is the most thoroughly revolting.  To impose such an irreversable thing on a baby who, obviously cannot consent, should be a felony and cause for widespread social disgust. I don't know how people can willingly chose to ignore such a gross and commonplace violation of personal autonony.

Whoooa, easy there, sport! Hold your horses! Cool your jets! Don't hitch your wagon to a star!
I suppose the above quote will suffice when too lazy to form an actual rebuttal. Or when the situation is so clear cut that no reasonal rebuttal is plausible. Or are you actually going to defend routinely altering the genitals of babies just because religion says so?

It will suffice when my interlocutor is literally arguing for criminalizing an important ritual of at least one major religion, because sarcastic use of old-person cliches and posting in the Sage Garden without remark are all that such a stupefyingly disgusting suggestion deserves. On further reflection, should instead have said 'Poo-tee-weet?', but oh well, it's too late now.
Gotcha. You're not going to defend cutting off parts of babies genitals, even as some babies die from the procedure and others catch nasty diseases because the superstitious monsters who perfom the procedures sometimes don't have enough common sense to follow basic hygiene standards. Instead, you're just going to hide behind religion, which is exactly what I suspected you would. Never mind the horrid ethics involved. No thoughtful reflection required. It's a "religion", so game over. If millions of men must silently suffer with parts of their penises missing, that's a small price to pay so that you can smugly pat yourself on the back for blindly believing that religion must never be questioned because it is more important than personal autonomy.

MILLIONS OF MEN MUST SILENTLY SUFFER!!!! You sound like, quite literally, a bad joke.

What I'm 'hiding behind' is the First Amendment, and, yes, sometimes a few sacrifices do have to be made around the margins to ensure that our fundamental freedoms of expression and belief are secure.
Logged
Meursault
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 771
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 12:07:29 AM »

I cannot wait until a new worldview puts its boot through the rotting, worm-ridden edifice of Abrahamic monotheism. I may not live to see it, but I can dream of the day.
Logged
memphis
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,959


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 01:57:00 PM »

Yes, the notion that routine genital mutilation of babies ought to be a crime is a bad joke. And in order to be free, the religious simply must cut off parts of babies' penises. Anything less would be tyranny. Un-Inksing-believable! Shall we bring back the castrati as well? Virgin sacrifice? Suttee? Divine rule of monarchs? As Nathan says, some must suffer to appease the religious.
If you want to alter your penis, I have no problem with that. It's yours, after all, and none of my business. All I'm asking if for other to leave alone the penises of babies. I don't think that's much to ask.
Logged
7,052,770
Harry
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 35,222
Ukraine


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2014, 06:49:18 PM »
« Edited: June 16, 2014, 06:58:40 PM by Harry »

Not that it's essential to health or anything, but it's been pretty conclusively demonstrated that you're better off circumcised than not circumcised. A baby doesn't consent to a vaccine either and there's always a tiny chance that a vaccine could have a nasty side effect, but only loons want to ban vaccines.

Very weird thing for Memphis to get so fired up about...

ETA: This article, which I found on 538, explains how the "benefits exceed risks by at least 100 to 1. If one considers the seriousness of some conditions that circumcision protects against, the benefit would actually be much greater." It's not like it's some benefitless superstition...
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 06:59:48 PM »

My grandfather had to be circumcised in his 40s because of an infection he developed. Apparently he was bedridden for a week in severe pain. Getting it done as a baby sounds easier than having to deal with that.
Logged
World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
Moderator
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 34,251


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 08:24:12 PM »

Yes, the notion that routine genital mutilation of babies ought to be a crime is a bad joke. And in order to be free, the religious simply must cut off parts of babies' penises. Anything less would be tyranny. Un-Inksing-believable! Shall we bring back the castrati as well? Virgin sacrifice? Suttee? Divine rule of monarchs? As Nathan says, some must suffer to appease the religious.
If you want to alter your penis, I have no problem with that. It's yours, after all, and none of my business. All I'm asking if for other to leave alone the penises of babies. I don't think that's much to ask.

Not to interrupt your hysterical and frankly worrying straw-manning of the position on this--that it's the parents' business and that the benefit of the doubt in a society with freedom of religion should generally go to those who want to when possible avoid prosecuting aspects of religious practice as felonies instead of those whose preferred set of priorities for making policy on the subject makes the analogous provisions of the Volstead Act look like kum-ba-yah multiculturalism by comparison--that most sensible people hold, but do you genuinely consider circumcision a comparable violation to the other things that you're mentioning, or is it just that degree and scale have no meaning to you?
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2014, 06:26:15 AM »

I cannot wait until a new worldview puts its boot through the rotting, worm-ridden edifice of Abrahamic monotheism. I may not live to see it, but I can dream of the day.

It all sounds rotten to me:

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.256 seconds with 13 queries.