People dressing formally at church is correlated to...what exactly?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It's kind of interesting because it's hard to pin down. I used to think it was a liberal/conservative thing (back when my point of comparison was mostly just rural Lutheran churches only olds go to and more modern family-oriented ones like where my parents go to now), but I've seen in videos of megachurches and even Assembly of God services and on their websites most people are wearing jeans. Similarly when I was returning this morning I passed a church near me which is one of the most blatantly liberal ones in the state (to where they are quite active in opposing the anti-gay marriage amendment and hosting speakers against it) and noticed people leaving, most of whom were somewhat formally dressed and a group of olds crossing the street in front of me who were all super-formal and the men had ties and everything. And they are way more theologically liberal than most churches to to the point of not preaching belief in a physical Resurrection, which no one would do at where I went. Yet they also host another smaller church in the afternoon that is just as liberal politically but theologically more conservative that I've had some involvement with, and no one there dresses up. And if you look up an Episcopal cathedral on YouTube you'll see they tend formal, but so do Mormons and I'm sure that a LCMS church would be way more formal than any ELCA one, and as I mentioned a few weeks ago most people were pretty dressed up at my cousin's first communion in a Catholic church in a conservative suburb, so you can't say it's correlated with theologically liberalism either.

So what is the correlation? It almost seems arbitrary in regards to political and/or theological liberalism/conservatism.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I always wear a tie to church- what does that mean then?

It means you dishonor and disrespect God.

(OK I don't actually think that, but I know people who do.)*

What it actually means: You have crappy taste in fashion and a mindset over 30 years older than you actually are.

*But I will admit their reasoning makes a lot of sense, it can put focus on the individual, it can be to exclusion of those poor or who aren't comfortable dressing up as such, it's a shallow human-centric way of thinking, etc.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

As I've said many times, I would only wear a tie "ironically", and I don't even do that because to do so I'd have to both own and a tie and know how to tie one. There's a guy in the worship band who does that quite frequently, the only person at church I see wearing a tie.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

how long the congregation has existed is a strong correlate.  Not many churches established before the late sixties are going to be full of people wearing t-shirts.

Central Lutheran in downtown Minneapolis has been around for quite awhile, though today they participate in the City Pages "church ads" page that they run before Christmas and Easter and have a late Saturday afternoon service with the whole premise that you can both go to church and go clubbing downtown so those might work toward it being an exception.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

You remind of this guy I used to work with who would constantly dress like that to work just to irritate the management.

In three piece suits? Super mega FF- but wait, how well fitting were they? What were they like? Peak lapel, or notch? Double or single breasted? Three-roll-two or just plain three or two button? Single or double vented? French or barrel cuffs?

You think I have a clue what this stuff is?

Is Barack Obama dishonoring and disrespecting the American people when he gives a speech in a suit and tie? Is he doing it to be ironic? Are lawyers being ironic when they do it in a courtroom and really trying to disrespect the judge?

It's a sign of respect and reverence in our culture. It's not the same for every culture, obviously, but in ours the suit and tie represent the seriousness of whatever occasion we don them for. Plenty of people wear jeans to my church (most wear them or some kind of khaki/polo/collared shirt combo). Nobody criticizes them for doing so, and likewise I've never heard any 20 year old get on someone's case for wearing a suit. I would also say that you can hardly judge someone's political or theological liberalism based on their attire on a Sunday. In fact, more liberal SBC churches are often more formal than the conservative ones, especially in Virginia. In other words, it really is a non-issue.

Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.

Booking or playing in these shows requires a hell of a lot more work than putting on a tie. Playing can be quite physically exhausting.

This also begs the question why anyone would wear a three piece suit to a hardcore show in the first place...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Like I said before, I don't really agree with it, (though I understand it's not entirely non-mainstream, I've heard of some Mennonite churches forbidding men in the ministry from wearing ties), it's just that I hate having to spend more time on getting dressed than just pulling out clothes from my clean laundry basket and that getting dressed formally gives me anxiety. In a nutshell if I have to dress up more than I would for going to a hardcore/punk/indie show, I don't want to do it. Which is actually why I sort of see dressing casually as a "liberal" thing.

If so that doesn't really reflect well on liberalism, does it, since what you're describing sounds more like a 'lazy person' thing.

Booking or playing in these shows requires a hell of a lot more work than putting on a tie. Playing can be quite physically exhausting.

This also begs the question why anyone would wear a three piece suit to a hardcore show in the first place...

Well, that was a little snide and I'm sorry, but I'm concerned that you conflate church with hardcore shows. Then again, that might be a High/Low Church thing. Or liturgical/charismatic, or both.

Hey no problem just note the people in this video can hardly be accused of being "lazy". Note the water jug on the stage. Those are commonly there for a reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_i0OQKjUA

And look at how sweaty this guy gets. Don't think that ever happens to someone at a high church service. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qExhuRNrnFQ

And what's the difference between church and a Christian hardcore show?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges
-Hipster scarves
-Piercings anywhere than the ears
-Band shirt
-Hoodie
-Tattoos over an entire arm
-Large chestpiece or back tattoos.
-Lower back tattoo ("Tramp stamp")

I once knew a Christian hardcore girl with a Bible verse for the last one.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions.

But when I got baptized and we also did our infant dedications, the only people dressed up were olds who obviously weren't normal attendees and were mostly family of the parents of the babies being dedicated. The parents and pastors (and of course me) were still all as casual as normal.

This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.

I'd dispute the "most" in the modern day. It's not 50 years ago.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just out of curiosity Nathan, have you ever seen anyone with any of these at church? None strike  me as very New England WASP, even in Amherst:

-Plugs/gauges

I don't know what these are, so no.

Those things the singer of the band in the first video has in his earlobes. For the record I strongly dislike them and will never get them and the fact that your ear lobe will never fully close after them makes them a bad idea alone in my view but...

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No.

Hmmm, those are actually pretty mainstream now.

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Huh. I wasn't aware that was a thing, but I'm not necessarily surprised.

Just a girl from South Dakota I saw at a bunch of shows and ran a small distro with her husband, who I think she later separated if not divorced from. I think she lives in Seattle now or somewhere (wow she'd be about 32 today...)

Church is different from a Christian hardcore show because the altar is an axis mundi and the priest is ceremonially marrying Heaven to Earth and Christ to the Church.

Yep, liturgical/charismatic difference. Mind you we don't even have an altar (or a priest for that matter.) and the venue even looks like a show space except for the cross on the back wall (and since it already has a great sound system set up actually would be an awesome venue, the only reason I haven't asked about renting out the place for bookings is because it's hard to get people to shows in NE Minneapolis unless the band is trendy or alcohol is being served)

BRTD, I also wouldnt necessarily conflate people's dress for a first Holy Communion to their normal church attire. Most people on special events step up their dress as a sign of respect and as a symbol that it is indeed a special occasion.  This is really the norm across most cultures and religions.

But when I got baptized and we also did our infant dedications, the only people dressed up were olds who obviously weren't normal attendees and were mostly family of the parents of the babies being dedicated. The parents and pastors (and of course me) were still all as casual as normal.

This is also why most people don't dress like they just rolled out of bed when they go to church.

I'd dispute the "most" in the modern day. It's not 50 years ago.

Your own life experience is not the baseline for all of humanity.

Just because you and your peers like hardcore shows or go to church in a T shirt does not mean that 1. it matters at all or says anything meaningful about said concert goer or T shirt wearer 2. that anyone else should care  3.  This and the several previous threads or discussions on the matter betray a level of superficiality and seems a conceit.  The, I couldn't bother to get dressed up, is, to me at least, tiresome and immature.  It is all a pose.  Ive seen so many "scene" people who likely spent hours on their messy hair. 

Further, By dwelling on this so much it is all quite obvious that you intensely care on what you and others are wearing.  Hence, my sarcastic suggestion that you get your own fashion sub board.  The fact that you are concentrating so much on what others around you are wearing rather than the message you are receiving makes you no better than the blue haired old ladies who snicker at another woman's scandalous top or skirt.

Lastly man, you are an old! I'd hope that obsessing over a little clique and again its conceits (your own uniform and soundtrack) is something most people leave behind in high school or latest college.  Wear and listen to what you like  but don't think that it says something really transcendental about you as a person. I'm glad you have found a group of people you like to worship with, however,  the costume you do it in is really insignificant.

So to answer your OP, nothing.

Look this has always been a quirk of mine. I have always been anti-formal dress, and I even boycotted some school events where semi-formal was at least "encouraged". I'll admit you are right in that I might be giving a bit too much focus to this sort of thing. Mind you I kind of disapprove of any type of "dressing up" such as the people you are mentioning and stupid looking sports fans the cameras love to point out in the stands.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Do you ever see people listening to iPods entering/leaving? (Or using iPods/phones to look up Bible verses)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

By that logic I should've dressed more formally than normal when I was at Dude Fest.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just pointing out the logical conclusion of that. Here's another example: Do people with Super Bowl tickets dress up formally to the stadium stands?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well all of them are quite similar. People waving their hands, jumping up and down, yelling loudly, etc.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think about religion in the same vein that I think about sports, so the metaphor works.  Both have extreme blind loyalty that defies rationality.

So that explains why if you lived here you'd be more likely to go to a Catholic church than one where I know the lead pastor who has an anti-gay marriage ban bumper sticker on his car. Well that and the dislike of handraising.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

....that happened in my row at my cousin's first communion and I didn't have a problem with it nor did it strike me as odd. And I never found it odd at more charismatic Lutheran services where it's fairly common.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's proof it's not quite a high/low church thing either: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BOFYmcHEIc

Although if you draw a political compass style high/low axis and liberal/conservative axis it's safe to say the liberal/low corner will be overwhelmingly casual and the high/conservative corner overwhelmingly formal, so maybe a combo of the two.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Here's the part that stuck out to me:

Let me toss in my two cents (maybe worth but a cent and a half), but here goes:

I normally don't dress up for church just because I'm lazy.  Whenever I feel the energy, I will wear a suit and tie, especially on Easter, Fourth of July, and Christmas.  I actually enjoy wearing suits even more so than jeans and t-shirts.  If it weren't so darn expensive to buy several suits, I would enjoy a job as a TV News Reporter who wear suits by default.  They make me feel better about myself.

That said, I do not perceive wearing a suit as a necessity in church.  God doesn't care about what you wear on the outside, He cares more about what you look like on the inside.  His aim is to change people from the inside out, not the outside in like religion does.

At my small, Southern Baptist church, we do have one lady (my cousin) who has tattoos all over her arms, neck, and back.  She barely has any blank skin left.  I've seen her in a two-piece bathing suit and she is still covered all over, too.  The older people of my church don't care for it, but they do not condemn it.

My pastor wears a collared polo and khakis.  My music minister/youth minister will usually wear the same, but will once in a while put on a suit with a maroon shirt and a black tie.

Again, I really could care less what people wear in church, unless they are wearing a bathing suit or otherwise leaving little to the imagination.  I prefer suits for men and dresses for the ladies, but that's not a requirement in my opinion.

I know I am an old, because I prefer the older, slower hymns as opposed to the newer, faster contemporary.  *Watches BRTD cringe at the thought of older, slower hymns*

Since when is the Fourth of July a religious holiday?