Joe Biden endorses gay marriage

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It was certainly considered a type of business contract in most civilizations. Maybe among the peasantry there was greater leeway but that's certainly not normative in the historical record.

Marriage really isn't one of those things that you can present as normative from and for eternity (at least, not from a historical perspective; from a religious perspective you certainly can if you're not hung up on the historical perspective) without going through some pretty convoluted retroactive redefinition anyway.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It was certainly considered a type of business contract in most civilizations. Maybe among the peasantry there was greater leeway but that's certainly not normative in the historical record.

Marriage really isn't one of those things that you can present as normative from and for eternity (at least, not from a historical perspective; from a religious perspective you certainly can if you're not hung up on the historical perspective) without going through some pretty convoluted retroactive redefinition anyway.

are you saying the bible doesn't view marriage as a contract of love?

Well, I mean, that's normative within the Bible, certainly, but it's hard to argue that it's the case with every specific marriage presented or discussed. I'm not really discussing the Bible here anyway, more the general way things were structured in ancient societies (and many modern societies, for that matter).

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Marriage for love as an ideal has always existed, though other concerns have often taken precedence.

Exactly. What constitutes that ideal is culturally specific, as is how frequently it's upheld, but that core has always been there. The point is that practically nothing else, certainly nothing of the practice, has been universal.