Did Bush win Wisconsin?

[DanimalBr]

Hmmm.   This is interesting.  Funny how certain hard-core left crybabies whale and moan about how Bush stole Ohio and that there was massive voter fraud there.  And they just want to make sure every vote counts.  See what they have to say about this.   Here are some keypoints about this article:

1. You can register to vote on election day in Wisconsin.

2. In Miwaukee alone, 10,000 votes cannot be verified - ie, they cannot locate a voter at the address given at the precinct.

3. Kerry won Wisconsin by 11,384 votes.

4.  On election day in Wisconsin, a Bush GTV headquarters was vandalized when vehicles that were to take Bush voters to the polls had all their tires slashed.

5.  If Wisconsin's 10 electoral votes had gone to Bush, it would have taken Bush's electoral total to 296, which is beyond the margin that Ohio's 20 EVs would have made any difference. 

Okay.  The Cobbs, The Badnaricks, and the whiners who can't accept the election want to investigate Ohio.  Why aren't we looking into Wisconsin, gentlemen?  Isn't the votes there just as important?   Hmmmmmmmm?  I guess Blue States can't be questioned can they?   We can question Ohio, New Mexico, and Nevada.  But god forbid we should question the sacred Blue states that were close like Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, or Michigan.  Face it, that group just wants to count enough votes for Kerry to win.  They could care less about "counting every vote."   

 http://mytwocommoncents.blogspot.com/2005/01/did-bush-win-wisconsin.html

[Hitchabrut]

Nice observation.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Looks like jfern has some Republican equivalents.

[J. J.]

Looks like jfern has some Republican equivalents.

We are just mocking the jFRAUD's of this world.  In close states, you can find all sorts of things to show that the result could have changed the results.  The only difference is, Ohio was not close enough to really do this without revealing yourself as a lunatic.

[DanimalBr]

Looks like jfern has some Republican equivalents.

We are just mocking the jFRAUD's of this world.  In close states, you can find all sorts of things to show that the result could have changed the results.  The only difference is, Ohio was not close enough to really do this without revealing yourself as a lunatic.

Precisely.  I'm not whining and crying like some people here.  Especially since my side won.  My point was that if you want to complain and whale about voter fraud and election's being stolen, there are a lot of other places you can look into besides Ohio. 

[Andrew]

1. You can register to vote on election day in Wisconsin.

This, in and of itself, is not a problem.  The administration of such a policy can be problematic.

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I believe that the issue here is that approximately 10,000 regristrations can't be verified because they are illegible (so they can't be disproved either).  The assumption is that the information was checked at the time of registration.  It's still not a good situation.

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True.

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This is true.  It was publicly denounced by the local head of the Democratic Party, and local Republicans provided their own cars for party use.  Not good, but it seems not to be the misguided act of some individual or individuals, not part of any conspiracy.

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Not relevant. 

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I believe that Conyers and Waxman have called for investigations into voting problems nationwide.  And you'll recall that the first Presidential recounts following the 2004 election were in New Hampshire.

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People who care about fair elections care about getting it right, regardless of the outcome.  Unfortunately, this includes only a minority of Democrats, and virtually no Republicans.

[J. J.]

People who care about fair elections care about getting it right, regardless of the outcome.  Unfortunately, this includes only a minority of Democrats, and virtually no Republicans.

Andrew, I think you better read my posts on the Washington race prior to making such broad comments.

[Andrew]

I have read your posts, and you're in a distinct minority.

For clarification, I didn't mean that Republicans are only interested in the outcome.  I meant that most Democrats don't care about the issue of fair elections and election reform, and almost no Republicans care about it.

[stry_cat]

4.  On election day in Wisconsin, a Bush GTV headquarters was vandalized when vehicles that were to take Bush voters to the polls had all their tires slashed.

This is outrageous.  Why hasn't this been on national news? 

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I think they want to raise issues about the voting process and by looking at a state that could change the outcome of the election they think they'll get more media attention.  After all the media is going to be more sympathetic and interested in something that could make Kerry win rather that something that could improve Bush's lead

[DanimalBr]

4.  On election day in Wisconsin, a Bush GTV headquarters was vandalized when vehicles that were to take Bush voters to the polls had all their tires slashed.

This is true.  It was publicly denounced by the local head of the Democratic Party, and local Republicans provided their own cars for party use.  Not good, but it seems not to be the misguided act of some individual or individuals, not part of any conspiracy.

Well No kidding.  You don't say.   Duh!!   Of course the local head of the Democratic Party is going to denounce it,  whether it was a wide conspiracy or not.   Do you honestly think that anybody is gonna be that stupid to go on tv and say "Whoever slashed all those tired did a good and honorable thing and they should be commended for their actions."  LOL.

 I'm not saying that they had something to do with it.  All I'm saying is that them denouncing it doesn't mean squat.  Kind of like Bill Clinton saying "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."   Just because a semi-important person says something, doesn't make it so.

[minionofmidas]

What Andrew said.

[phk]

This thread is blowing mental circuits on the boards.

[Blue Rectangle]

I have read your posts, and you're in a distinct minority.

For clarification, I didn't mean that Republicans are only interested in the outcome.  I meant that most Democrats don't care about the issue of fair elections and election reform, and almost no Republicans care about it.

In this thread several Republicans and right-of-center independents expressed support for a number of voting reforms aimed at reducing fraud.

Before the election, Republican support of tougher voting regulations, especially limits on registration processes and provisional ballots, was seen by many Dems as an attempt to reduce the voter turnout among core Democratic constituencies.  As it turned out, first time voters and provisional voters did not favor Kerry by a large margin.  Thus, it is hopeful that the reforms Republicans pushed for before the election will gain bipartisan support.  Don't hold your breath, though.

In related news, Kerry has launched a strong campaign for the "Al Gore Grace in Defeat Award" for 2004.

[Andrew]

Of course the local head of the Democratic Party is going to denounce it,  whether it was a wide conspiracy or not.

You misunderstand me; perhaps I was unclear.  I was making two separate points:  (1) the local Democratic leader denounced it, and (2) it appears to be the action of individuals acting on their own.  I say (2) because everything I've read about it, from November 2 on, seems to indicate that there is no evidence that it was anything else.

I wasn't suggesting that if (1), then (2).

[DanimalBr]

Of course the local head of the Democratic Party is going to denounce it,  whether it was a wide conspiracy or not.

You misunderstand me; perhaps I was unclear.  I was making two separate points:  (1) the local Democratic leader denounced it, and (2) it appears to be the action of individuals acting on their own.  I say (2) because everything I've read about it, from November 2 on, seems to indicate that there is no evidence that it was anything else.

I wasn't suggesting that if (1), then (2).

I hear ya.  And I think many people have misunderstood my reasoning for starting this thread.  I'm not suggesting that Bush did win Wisconsin or even that there was some kind of wide spread conspiracy involved.  And you are probably right, the person who slashed the tires on election day was probably the act of one or two whackos and not a wide spread democrat conspiracy. 

For the last four years I've had to put up with this "selected, not elected" crap from my hardcore left friends and co-workers.  Now after this election, an election which Bush won the popular vote and electoral vote.   ANd he carried the decisive state of Ohio by a small but significant 119,000 vote margin, I've had to listen to the  same 10 percent of the Democratic party, the hardcore left wingers spew the same crap about how the Republicans had some wide spread conspiracy to surpress the vote and steal the election.   While I strongly disagree, I can understand their frustration about 2000.  But this year, I see this as nothing more but an attempt to try to de-legetimitize President Bush's victory.  And I quite frankly am sick of it.

The only arguement that I've heard about Ohio is that people had to stand in long lines in the rain.  And about how one machine added 3,000 more votes to Bush in one precict, a problem that was quickly corrected the next day.   I do believe that Kerry did win Wisconsin.  But my point in begining this thread is I too can take some small little insignficant blogger rumor, blow it up, spread the word around and whine and moan like a little baby that Kerry stole Wisconsin from Bush.  And I'd more or less be laughed out of town.  Which is precisely what the small minority of Democrats have done in Ohio.   I can make the same silly arguements about Wisconsin, that people like Conyers, Boxer, Jackson and the rest of them do about Ohio.   And if I suggest that Bush might have won Wisconsin, I sound every bit as stupid as thos who say Kerry might have won Ohio.   But if this is about voter integrity and protecting every vote, how come it's only been about Ohio and to a lesser extent Flordia, Nevada, and New Mexico that have come under question.   

Cobb and Badnarik wanted to have recounts in the Bush states of Ohio, New Mexico, and Nevada.   But yet weren't interested in the Kerry states like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and Michigan.   There was a New Hampshire recount done of just a few small precints.  But from what I understand, Ralph Nader just wanted to check the accuracy of the machines.   

My entire point in this whole thread was that if you are gonna debate and bring up potential voter fraud and surpression, talk about in the Kerry states as well as the Bush states.   

[Erc]

Hey, if Bush actually won Wisconsin (and NH), then my prediction was accurate...

[RJ]

Almost no one has brought up the fact that Republicans were so proud of telling everyone how they won the election, it's finished, Bush was victorious and just get over it. Now, we need a recount to verify he got 296 and not 286 electoral votes. Why not just take some of your own advice and accept things as they stand?

[DanimalBr]

Almost no one has brought up the fact that Republicans were so proud of telling everyone how they won the election, it's finished, Bush was victorious and just get over it. Now, we need a recount to verify he got 296 and not 286 electoral votes. Why not just take some of your own advice and accept things as they stand?

Hey, I'm perfectly happy to let things stand.   The guy I wanted to win won.  The wacko left (not the majority of decent democrats) are the ones who whined and moaned about Ohio and will for the next 4 years try to delegitmitize Bush's victory and say he stole Ohio.  And all I'm saying is that those same arguements that they try to make about Ohio, we could make the same about Wisconsin.   

[Will F.D. People]

People who care about fair elections care about getting it right, regardless of the outcome.  Unfortunately, this includes only a minority of Democrats, and virtually no Republicans.

Andrew -- please please please stop throwing around generalizations like this.

I know a lot of Republicans who care deeply about issues of an election "getting it right". Making sure felons, non-citizens, and non-living people don't vote is an issue that a lot of Republicans care about, all related to an election "getting it right". I know a lot of Republicans that are upset about the subjective nature of counting the votes, and have a sincere mistrust of a system where partisan election workers try to divine "voter intent" from ambiguous ballots. I know a lot of Republicans who sincerely view Gore's Florida tactics in 2000 of trying to get Democratic elections commissions to cull votes from the most heavily Democratic counties in the state as a threat to democracy.

The Help America Vote act was passed first by the Republican-controlled house in 2001 before being passed in the Senate the next year and then signed into law by a Republican President.

I for one support paper trails as long as they can be done without compromsing the secret ballot. However, this is no panacea; as we saw in King County, having a paper record of a vote can also lead to questions about the election's legitimacy if the paper record is not safeguarded properly and left lying around in break rooms and all sorts of other places and then later "found" during third counts, etc.

So I classify myself as a Republican who cares deeply about an election "getting it right".  I would hope that John Conyers and company are not the final arbiters of what is just and true in elections. If I say that I think the criticism of people having to wait in line to vote in a few precincts is not sufficient to overhaul our entire voting system, I hope this does not automatically cast me into the camp of being uncaring about whether elections "get it right". 

[jimrtex]

4.  On election day in Wisconsin, a Bush GTV headquarters was vandalized when vehicles that were to take Bush voters to the polls had all their tires slashed.

This is true.  It was publicly denounced by the local head of the Democratic Party, and local Republicans provided their own cars for party use.  Not good, but it seems not to be the misguided act of some individual or individuals, not part of any conspiracy.

Though it looks bad now that the sons of a Democrat congresswomen and a former acting mayor of Milwaukee have been indicted.