SENATE BILL: Anti-Conscription Amendment (Failed) (user search)
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  SENATE BILL: Anti-Conscription Amendment (Failed) (search mode)
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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Anti-Conscription Amendment (Failed)  (Read 7600 times)
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clarence
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« on: May 25, 2012, 03:17:14 PM »

Wormyguy- I find your statement very interesting and well-researched. I would agree if we lived in a more ideal world... if in this world our enemies (if we had them) saw our government as their enemy- I would agree. The reality is- many of our enemies see no difference between our govt and our people. Sure it is repeated often but must be repeated again here- there are those who will strap a bomb to themselves to kill our civilians...becaue they hate our nation and all Atlasians

Now- there is a response to this. You say that these people dont have the means to attack us in a manner which calls for the draft...I agree. However- we simply never know what could happen. The draft isn't to protect government- it's to protect the people. Has it been used improprely? That is up for debate- I happen to have served with men who were drafted who served as honorably as any one else

To protect our citizens from tyranny- it is necessary to have at our disposal all possible options. It's been said the constitution is not a suicide pact- neither is any speech by Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, or any Founding Father. I don't say this because I don't value liberty- I say it because I value liberty and reality...to meet the challenges of today's world requires sacrifices. I've advocated a change in tactics to prioritize drones and airstrikes over ground forces...this would make conscription less necessary, but it must always be an option
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clarence
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »

Compelling young Atlasians to work for the State, and to fight, kill, possibly die or become severely wounded in a war, is slavery.  There is no way of getting around this, from a moral perspective.  Continuing to even allow conscription to be an option enables the government to reach beyond its moral boundaries and jeopardizes the ability of one to own one's self by shaping how they live their lives.  To put it simply, if the government wages war to defend a free nation and uses conscription to do it, then there is no longer a free country to defend.

As wormyguy has said, this country is very capable of defending itself in the event of an attack- both in the homefront, and the domestic front.  If a foreign military dares to threaten this country, their plans will swiftly be put to a stop.
Scott- this is going to come across grumpy and condescending but know that isn't my intentention...
There is a difference between theory and reality. Theoretically the last statement in your first paragraph makes sense...but in reality the draft exists as an option to ensure the freedoms we have now will continue. Wormyguy says that in the event we needed a draft- citizens would rise up and if thy wouldn't- the nation deserves to be defeated. However- people are individualistic... if there is an existential threat to our nation, it is one to evry citizen as well and I don't see young men signing up in droves to bet placed on the front lines...do you?

The way you and wormyguy make it seem- it's as if we mandate military service or draft kids every other day. It hasn't happened for nearly four decades and all of us- even me, the biggest hawk here- agree it shouldnt be used except in extraordinary cases. Why don't we amend this to have the Senate authorize conscription by a 3/4 vote?


I posted above and see that you posted more in response to Joyce...

OK...as I mentioned in my response to wormyguy- neither our constitution or any speech by a Foudning Father is a suicide pact. But in case it sways you, here is what Jefferson said- "[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means." This regarded the Louisiana Purchase which he wasn't permitted to do and which would've been as Washington put it- an imperial Presidency. Bt he did it and we're glad he did! Look at what Lincoln pulled during the Civil War- he recognized that in exceptional cases- we must act for self-preservation

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clarence
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 09:15:02 PM »

I've been using the phrase "The constitution is not a suicide pact"... this comes from a 1963 Supreme Court decision involving the draft of all things... here is a piece from the majority opinion by Justice Goldberg...

"The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship, performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government."
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clarence
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2012, 09:51:51 PM »

NC Yankee and SJoycleFla explained better then I ever could what is wrong with this proposal...
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clarence
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2012, 12:19:15 PM »

Aye
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clarence
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2012, 10:05:03 PM »

Aye
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clarence
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2012, 08:15:12 PM »

Nay

I think a vote on the legislation itself would be better at this point.
Good point- I change my vote to Nay
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clarence
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« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2012, 11:29:24 PM »

I move for a final vote
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clarence
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 08:40:47 PM »

Nay
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