Only 41% of Americans Identify as Pro-Choice

[Torie]

If you ever want to get a self-identified "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" voter to oh so grudgingly consider changing their label, ask them how many years of prison a woman should serve for having an abortion.

Most of the time: "Oh, I don't think people should go to jail for it, I just don't like abortion...."

No, you just de-license the abortionist MD. The jails are already full of druggies anyway, so there is no room for abortionists or abortionees anyway.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

[TJ in Oregon]

Most people don't have well defined views on political issues and just have vague ideas about how things should be. Abortion is no exception. Most people have some inclination about whether it should be legal or illegal in some vague sense and only have a vague sense about what that means. You can find "pro-life" people who oppose outlawing abortion in general but think the terms applies to wanting to reduce it. You can also find "pro-choice" people who support outlawing abortion in all cases except rape or when the mother's life is endangered.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

It's not that difficult to be more liberal than an average American.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

The language of rights leads to the politics of absolutes. Essentially. Officially neither side in the American abortion 'debate' are in favour of any kind of compromise with the other.

[Mechaman]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

Oh yes, Europeans are all so very very LIBRULE on the abortion issue.

[RIP Robert H Bork]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

Oh yes, Europeans are all so very very LIBRULE on the abortion issue.

Sure, one country out of a few dozen makes Europe (on the whole) not liberal.

I know abortion is illegal in Ireland. There are also plenty of European countries where it is not.

[Franzl]

I'm not aware of many (if any) countries in Eirope that have more liberal abortion laws than the U.S.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Just like a majority of Americans opposed the "death tax", but supported the estate tax and inheritance tax?

[Mechaman]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

Oh yes, Europeans are all so very very LIBRULE on the abortion issue.

Sure, one country out of a few dozen makes Europe (on the whole) not liberal.

I know abortion is illegal in Ireland. There are also plenty of European countries where it is not.

To be fair, TrueCon, the only reason it seems Europe as a whole is super duper pro-abortion is that they don't have a base of it's population speaking up and griping about said issue.  Actual laws and regulations wise, I would bet a Canadian Nickel the laws are more liberal here.

Culture wise is another issue.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I was always amazed about how controversial and topical the issue of abortion is in the US. In Europe it is virtually non-existent since I remember myself.
Even here in Greece, by far the most socially conservative country in the EU, abortion was legalized back in the 70's with little resistance from the powerful Orthodox church and nobody ever mentioned it since then, much less used it as a wedge issue.

I agree with this, but in the opposite direction. (I think I've already replied a similar post of yours before.)

Like I said before, I think the 'problem' isn't that we're too conservative (on abortion or any other issue); it's that Europeans are too liberal.

Oh yes, Europeans are all so very very LIBRULE on the abortion issue.

Sure, one country out of a few dozen makes Europe (on the whole) not liberal.

I know abortion is illegal in Ireland. There are also plenty of European countries where it is not.

To be fair, TrueCon, the only reason it seems Europe as a whole is super duper pro-abortion is that they don't have a base of it's population speaking up and griping about said issue.  Actual laws and regulations wise, I would bet a Canadian Nickel the laws are more liberal here.

Culture wise is another issue.

That's exactly what I meant. There are plenty of social conservatives here too but almost none of them have made all these years abortion an issue.

[Free Palestine]

It's a shame that only a quarter of Americans believe abortion should be allowed for any reason.  And it's even more a shame that only a few countries in Europe allow abortion for any reason during any trimester.  Iceland doesn't even allow abortion on demand, and it's probably the most progressive nation in the world.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

It's a shame that only a quarter of Americans believe abortion should be allowed for any reason.  And it's even more a shame that only a few countries in Europe allow abortion for any reason during any trimester.  Iceland doesn't even allow abortion on demand, and it's probably the most progressive nation in the world.

Iceland's brand of progressivism involves (warning: gross oversimplification ahead) a particular sort of austere vaguely puritany feminism, which makes this understandable, if somewhat counter-intuitive.

[Free Palestine]

It's a shame that only a quarter of Americans believe abortion should be allowed for any reason.  And it's even more a shame that only a few countries in Europe allow abortion for any reason during any trimester.  Iceland doesn't even allow abortion on demand, and it's probably the most progressive nation in the world.

Iceland's brand of progressivism involves (warning: gross oversimplification ahead) a particular sort of austere vaguely puritany feminism, which makes this understandable, if somewhat counter-intuitive.

I don't get it.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

It's a shame that only a quarter of Americans believe abortion should be allowed for any reason.  And it's even more a shame that only a few countries in Europe allow abortion for any reason during any trimester.  Iceland doesn't even allow abortion on demand, and it's probably the most progressive nation in the world.

Iceland's brand of progressivism involves (warning: gross oversimplification ahead) a particular sort of austere vaguely puritany feminism, which makes this understandable, if somewhat counter-intuitive.

I don't get it.

Think of the porn ban there. There are versions of feminism that view the maximization of choice for specific individual women as ancillary to attempts to promote some general female welfare or another, and for some people that can include a high value placed on pregnancy and motherhood. I haven't studied Icelandic abortion law or the reasoning behind it in depth but this came to mind as a possible cultural fit (then again, I'm very tired right now). It's also possible to oppose abortion on antieugenic grounds, even though that sometimes comes across as crankish or paranoid.

[Free Palestine]

Well, I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I still tend to think Iceland is awesome.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Well, I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I still tend to think Iceland is awesome.

I agree with both sentences here.

Any of our posters who have greater familiarity with Iceland than I do, feel free to correct me if my guess-interpretation is completely chimerical.

[fezzyfestoon]

Yessss...the smokescreen still works! The more we pay attention to this, the less likely we are to expect real change where it matters!

[7,052,770]

I consider myself "pro life," yet I completely support legalized abortion. I don't think I'm a rarity in this.

Republicans need to find a new pet issue

[Badger]

If you ever want to get a self-identified "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" voter to oh so grudgingly consider changing their label, ask them how many years of prison a woman should serve for having an abortion.

Most of the time: "Oh, I don't think people should go to jail for it, I just don't like abortion...."

No, you just de-license the abortionist MD. The jails are already full of druggies anyway, so there is no room for abortionists or abortionees anyway.

And if the abortion is performed by someone who isn't licensed? A "midwife" or the like? Unless there's an actual law with criminal sanctions against performing a specific medical procedure, and then the mother and anyone who aided rhem (the boyfriend or parent who drove them to/from the "crime scene" for example) is chargable as an accessory. Then we're back to square one.

I encourage anyone who gets into a dscussion with even a remotely compassionate selfidentified pro-life person (i.e. over 90% IMO), ask them this question and see how many people truly oppose legalized abortion.

[Torie]

If you ever want to get a self-identified "pro-life" or "anti-abortion" voter to oh so grudgingly consider changing their label, ask them how many years of prison a woman should serve for having an abortion.

Most of the time: "Oh, I don't think people should go to jail for it, I just don't like abortion...."

No, you just de-license the abortionist MD. The jails are already full of druggies anyway, so there is no room for abortionists or abortionees anyway.

And if the abortion is performed by someone who isn't licensed? A "midwife" or the like? Unless there's an actual law with criminal sanctions against performing a specific medical procedure, and then the mother and anyone who aided rhem (the boyfriend or parent who drove them to/from the "crime scene" for example) is chargable as an accessory. Then we're back to square one.

I encourage anyone who gets into a dscussion with even a remotely compassionate selfidentified pro-life person (i.e. over 90% IMO), ask them this question and see how many people truly oppose legalized abortion.

Midwife's need to be licensed too. Sure, it won't stop all late term abortions, but it should stop most of them (with the exceptions that I outlined), in large part because it will encourage pregnant women to make their decision early rather than vacillate. The abortions that would be made illegal are already relatively few in number, but that is where much of the acrimony is. Call me a "moderate hero" on abortion. I would really like to diffuse as much as possible all of the poison that is in the public square on this issue (much of it generated because it was all done by judicial fiat rather than the ballot box), and the beauty of this approach, is that given the SCOTUS test is now about "undue burden" on the mother, there is a path that might survive SCOTUS muster which would otherwise make all this chit chat moot. I think this approach is also what a majority actually favor if this were put to a vote.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I consider myself "pro life," yet I completely support legalized abortion. I don't think I'm a rarity in this.

Republicans need to find a new pet issue

     I have the same attitude towards the issue. It makes the cacophemistic use of "pro-abortion" as a descriptor particularly humorous to me.