talking points that piss you off
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2012, 09:33:45 AM »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2012, 09:36:21 AM »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

I'm not getting involved here.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #152 on: June 29, 2012, 09:46:45 AM »
« Edited: June 29, 2012, 09:48:58 AM by Irish Dixiecrat »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

I was mainly pointing out that it wasn't the ideological idea of slavery that was the main issue.  The economic issues of slavery, though, were THE issues of the Civil War.
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Donerail
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« Reply #153 on: June 29, 2012, 11:20:31 AM »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #154 on: June 29, 2012, 11:28:18 AM »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."

I remember a discussion about this in a history class. It was more like

South evil, north nice, Davis bad man, Lincoln like God, south like Nazis, north help south, reconstruction a success.
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Donerail
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« Reply #155 on: June 29, 2012, 12:16:42 PM »

Denying that American Civil war was about Slavery.

While certainly there other issues at stake they all came down to one fundamental point - the strong structural differences in the economy and society of the South vis-a-vis the North and this was fundamentally due to slavery (and the Cotton-Export dependant economy it created).

You have a point.

What I was mostly referring to was the way it was taught in like eighth grade history.  A lot less focus on the economic part of the war and more on some sort of notion that the North was full of abolitionists and that the Union Army went down South because Slavery offended them so.

As someone who just finished 8th grade history, this is pretty much accurate. Abolitionist movement is trumped up, Lincoln is idolized, and rationale portrayed as "South like slavery. Lincoln no like slavery. South no like Lincoln. South leave. Lincoln decide to save black people. Lincoln's people burn Atlanta."

I remember a discussion about this in a history class. It was more like

South evil, north nice, Davis bad man, Lincoln like God, south like Nazis, north help south, reconstruction a success.

We may have had a southern editor for our textbook. We got a question like "How was the South like the Patriots in the American Revolution?"
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« Reply #156 on: June 29, 2012, 12:29:03 PM »

For what it's worth, an important source for the idea of preserving slavery being the lion's share of the Southern ruling class's motivations for secession was the fact that the Southern ruling class, when asked at the time about their motivations for secession, said that preserving slavery was the lion's share. Lincoln of course was a politician, and while he may verily have been Honest Abe he was so purely in comparison to other politicians.
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« Reply #157 on: June 29, 2012, 04:18:07 PM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #158 on: June 29, 2012, 06:30:38 PM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #159 on: June 29, 2012, 07:23:03 PM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

Hashemite's Canadian.
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argentarius
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« Reply #160 on: June 29, 2012, 07:32:30 PM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.
I suppose that's one reason to be thankful of the two-party system. No nazis or communists gaining traction.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #161 on: June 29, 2012, 07:39:24 PM »

"Personal Responsibility", which so often means that those less fortunate should be punished.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #162 on: June 29, 2012, 07:44:04 PM »

I'm generally repulsed by the concept of whittling down complex, intertwined, fluid issues into often entirely nonsensical sound bites for commercials and hustling. Though I guess in our age of drowning ourselves in information, the US continues to become more and more complicated by its over-simplification and "efficiency" fixation. What bothers me more is the adoption of these cheap marketing lines as actual legitimate conversation. I guess that's the point at this point. I don't know that I could pick any particularly irritating ones because of that.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #163 on: June 30, 2012, 04:26:24 AM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #164 on: June 30, 2012, 04:37:18 AM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?

Well said. Now can we get along condemning the far-left as well. Jean-Luc Melenchon and his ilk.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #165 on: June 30, 2012, 05:16:24 AM »

While going through some complaints at work today, I fell across something which made me facepalm:

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"I am very concerned by the recent decision of the federal government to abandon the complete version of the census forms. Is this another means of hiding the perverse effect of the open doors immigration policy on the linguistic vitality of Francophone communities across the country? We fear that it is"

Dear Lord. TEH IMMIGRANTSZ ARE DESTROYING TEH COUNTRY AND TEH ZOMGZ FRENCH LINGUAGE!111

Why are European neo-Nazis so much more influential (from my point of view, at least) than the Americans? Golden Dawn, the National Front, the BNP, the Sweden Democrats; the American Nazi Party can't hold a candle to them.

The National Front, the BNP and the Sweden Democrats might be disgusting pieces of trash, but they are not, properly speaking, neo-nazis. There might not be any outright far-right party in America, but is the GOP's right-wing (Bachmann, Palin, Beck, etc) any less nutty than FN or BNP politicians ?

Well said. Now can we get along condemning the far-left as well. Jean-Luc Melenchon and his ilk.

Not really, since Mélenchon isn't far-left under any meaningful definition. The French far-left polled 1.7% in last elections.
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #166 on: June 30, 2012, 05:43:27 AM »

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This is not far left?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #167 on: June 30, 2012, 06:38:11 AM »

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Not really. Mélenchon certainly does not qualify as your standard orthodox marxist. As for Jaurès, he's an alleged source of inspiration for the French left as a whole.


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Not at all.


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That's a bit nutty, but overall no. The last part of the sentence shows that this is basically the traditional goal of Europe's radical-left parties.


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Pretty bland left-wing discourse, nothing really far-lefty.


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Traditional pipe dream of the French left. No People's Republic of France in sight, as you can see.


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Not in any way.


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Like in Italy and Switzerland, not exactly socialist countries.


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No.


Add to this that Mélenchon's true goal, like that of typical radical left parties in Europe (see the Danish socialists for example) is to influence their bigger center-left allies into taking more left-wing stances and to participate to the elaboration of government policy. Add the fact that he is a former PS cabinet minister. Add the fact that he is allied with the PCF, a fairly bland party made of established notables with no intent at playing the extremist card. Add to that that the actual far-left (LO and NPA) loathes him with a passion. So, in short, no, he's not far-left.
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Donerail
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« Reply #168 on: June 30, 2012, 08:03:59 AM »

So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #169 on: June 30, 2012, 08:08:49 AM »

So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #170 on: June 30, 2012, 08:58:07 AM »

So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.
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« Reply #171 on: June 30, 2012, 09:09:46 AM »

I would join in this argument, but considering who we're arguing against, I think I prefer to ram my head into the wall.
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BritishDixie
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« Reply #172 on: June 30, 2012, 09:14:27 AM »

I would join in this argument, but considering who we're arguing against, I think I prefer to ram my head into the wall.

Aw I'm not that dum Sad
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change08
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« Reply #173 on: June 30, 2012, 05:11:21 PM »

So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #174 on: June 30, 2012, 09:19:13 PM »

So he is a nutty leftist, just not a nutty far-leftist?

Basically. When you know actual French far-leftists, you can easily see the difference.

Yes but France is several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation with the exception of the Scandinavian states. Although the difference is their political discourse seems competent, whereas in France it seems like half of their politicians are still stuck in the 1790's. Melenchon would be considered a far-leftist outside of France. Even the BBC, a bastion of liberal-leftism, calls him a far-leftist, as to other such bastions like the Guardian.

They also think Syriza's far-left, so they're not exactly the best judges. And France has had 2 left-wing Presidents since the war, hardly "several notches to the left of almost every other developed western nation".

France is the only Western country I can think of where opebo would be taken seriously and considered within the mainstream of political discourse.
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