Let's discuss Mormonism.

[Torie]

There is no evidence; none, zip, nada that Native Americans contain 'tell-tale' genetic markers from the Levant or anywhere in the Middle East. I understand that the LDS had a whole industry of pseudo-science dedicated to trying to fight this or provide other explanations but it's a deliberate fudge.

This is exactly why I declared the DNA thing off-limits; it distracts from the point of this thread, and it just makes the one Mormon (i.e. myself) willing to talk to you all about other controversial issues in Mormonism very annoyed, because you are directly insulting my faith. Look, I'll literally discuss any other topic having to do with Mormonism except for those two issues I mentioned in the OP. Will that not satisfy you all?

If you want to discuss something in an ideologically diverse open forum you can't really expect people to adhere to your requests for certain portions of a topic to be off limits - if anything calling out one particular topic as off limits is going to mean people will target that issue because it's saying "this is my weak point in debate".

Also, please keep in mind that atheists such as myself and afleitch have a rather particular kind of view on issues like this. The way our minds work doesn't let us gloss over contradictions so easily. If your religious claims contradict what facts have been observed about reality we don't view it as an insult to point it out, rather we view it as recognizing reality for what it is in our pursuit of truth. That you might feel insulted when we do so is unfortunate and is not our goal, but is just not particularly important to what our goals are. We care about truth, fact, and reality, and honestly we hope others do as well which is why we are inclined to press people on things like this.

A most articulate post indeed, as to which I fully subscribe. While one of course has a right to make a leap of faith, and I respect that, others not having made such a leap of course are entitled to comment as to where they believe that such leaps do not comport with the empirical evidence. The wisest of those who make such leaps, acknowledge that, and that in the land of leaps the scientific method is inapposite, even while understanding that is apposite to others not in their zone.  Moreover, it is not as if the Godless don't get brickbats from time to time from those of faith, sometimes ascribing their non belief as the "religion" of "secular humanism" derisively. So the slings and arrows are shot both ways in any event. That's life in a public square which holds dear and respects the First Amendment.

[Torie]

My questions involve your sharing with us your anecdotal experiences.  In  your experience PioneerProgress, just how up to speed are LDS members on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and the actions of Brigham Young in connection therewith, including inter alia, Young ordering the destruction of the cairn the US army put up in remembrance of the slain (whom the LDS did not even bother to bury)?  How familiar are they with Young's authoritarian regime back then, when nobody was allowed to own property, and some of the controversial practices of the LDS back then, since abandoned, such as blood atonement? What is the reaction of other members, if one member has the courage to speak out on these issues?  And on the ground, how typical is it for LDS members to shun those who refuse to convert after being proselytized, particularly those with children, who are concerned about exposing their kids to gentile children whose parents refuse to join up?

[Torie]

What is the religious/cultural reason Mormons have such large families still to this day, particularly inasmuch as the LDS allows the use of birth control as I understand it?  And how does the LDS church induce couples to make such a huge sacrifice, financial and otherwise?  Folks in the LDS just seem so usually willing to hew to those in authority, in a nation whose folk culture is to distrust authority. In that regard, I heard somewhere that a disproportionate percentage of LDS women are on anti-depressents. Is that true?

[Torie]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

[Torie]

What "priesthood benefit"s do LDS women get if their husband is also LDS, that they don't get if their husband is a gentile?  

[Torie]

Well if I hooked up with an LDS partner, the "benefits" you outlined are just not sufficient to induce me to convert. I was hoping for something more tangible.

[Torie]

What percentage of Mormons still go to church semi regularly, who are shut out of the Temple because they did not tithe, admit to drinking, or whatever, so they don't get the ticket of good standing from their stake leader. I am just wondering how active Mormons are in their church who are in the twilight zone because they don't hew to all the rules - and either admit it, or are caught. What I am getting at, is if you go to an LDS church service any given Sunday, is basically everyone in attendance "true blue" and obedient - and tithes, or not (putting aside recent recruits of course)?

[Torie]

Anyone still interested? I'm still willing to answer Mormonism-related questions.

My interest in Mormonism had and has nothing to do with Mittens, and never has. I never cared about his religion vis a vis his act in the public square. So I am still here, following this thread with interest.

The last LDS folks who came to my door were there to urge me to vote against gay marriage, least churches have to solemnize wedding ceremonies of f****ts. There were not there to save my soul. Only JW's hit me up regularly now. Has the LDS church decided that ringing doorbells to spread the word is a thing of the past?

[Torie]

Have you heard anything thought the grapevine about what the LDS leadership in hindsight thinks about its full court press involvement (using below the belt tactics) in pushing for the anti-gay prop 8 measure in CA?

[Torie]

Thanks for the responses Zioneer, as always. You seem amazingly lucid given your condition, but then it is one that I don't understand. That was not covered much in my NAMI classes.

I once went to an LDS Family Center because I needed to sign a declaration in a real estate adverse possession case, where the technical owner were unknown issue of a guy who died in about 1910, then I had made a good faith effort to track them down. So off to the Family Center. The guy there was most helpful - almost too helpful in fact. What amazed me was that the billions of names, and the attendant information, was all on about 30 CD's maybe, stacked on top of one another on this cylinder resting on a plate sitting on his desk. Man, things have changed. I can't imagine was it was like before information could be cyber stored.