Let's discuss Mormonism.

[afleitch]

My understanding of Mormonism comes from a gay, formerly married friend of mine with two kids. Let's just say doctrine aside his understanding of Mormonism as practiced is not particularly complimentary.

[afleitch]

Here's the thing; years ago, people said Mormonism couldn't be true because no ship of the Israelite era could survive a trip to the Americas. Then Thor Heyerdahl did just that. Science can turn out to have been wrong, even when all the data gathered so far seems correct. If I'm remembering correctly, isn't DNA evidence especially finicky in some tests?

Taking a lot of liberties with your statements. Israelite's themselves were not known for their naval prowess; the Phoenicians were of course and sailed past Gibraltar and probably as far as the Azores. They may have sailed across the Atlantic and such an expidition is not entirely without basis but Thor's expedition (as Columbus' expeditions highlighted) that sailing west with the aid of currents was likely to land you square in the Carribean. DNA evidence, in terms of haplogroups etc is a fairly new science but is faily conclusive. Native Americans have very distinct genetic markers that sits with the settlement theory of Native Americans emigrating from central and east Asia some 10,000-17,000 years ago. Haplogroup Q is the defining haplogroup amongst Native Americans throughout the Americas. It is found in Siberia and other isolated pockets of the Arctic as vestigial groups who didn't cross the Bering landbridge. Also strong is Haplogroup C3 which for example is also found in the Mongolian steppes, Siberia and amongst Native Americans. Haplogroup R curiously does appear in Native Americans and Europeans (as well as the Indian subcontinent) and may be a more recent marker, but is not particularly strong in the Middle East so there is no evidence it came from there; if anything given it's concentration in Labrador/Quebec and Hudson areas it may have came from the Norse or from early European settlers.

There is no evidence; none, zip, nada that Native Americans contain 'tell-tale' genetic markers from the Levant or anywhere in the Middle East. I understand that the LDS had a whole industry of pseudo-science dedicated to trying to fight this or provide other explanations but it's a deliberate fudge.

[afleitch]

As I said, we're not getting anywhere in this thread if there's a rehash of those specific things that question the legitimacy of the LDS Church, rather than the legitimacy of it's action.

Well where is it you want to go? I mean I'm a historian so I'm quite keen on discussing the LDS's understanding of the history of Pre-Columbian America and why it's contrary to the historical, archaelogical, biological, genetical, cultural and linguisitic record. I take it that's a no no?

[afleitch]

Why does your church do so much harm to the gay community from gay Mormons to Prop 8? Why does it spend money and organise 'ex-gay' programs that don't work and leave those trapped in them or who have escaped from them psychologically scarred?

[afleitch]

Skipping over everything...why? It's the most repulsive combination of Christian ignorance with American exceptionalism...aka the result of generations of America's worst, yet disturbingly prominent, traits. Sounds a lot like our politics if you ask me. Not worth a discussion, just a dismissal.

Seriously? You're going to just dismiss my entire faith? You're going to go "nope not worth talking about", and instead of just ignoring this thread, you've posted to that effect? You're going to needlessly offend for no reason whatsoever?

I think you are the one who is taking offense here. Bear in mind it is you who set suspicious limits on what we were allowed to talk about and people have been civil throughout. However it remains that Mormonism is one of the most easily disoprovable of the modern faiths because it's claims are downright ludicrous and contemporary evidence of it's fabrication and what influenced Joseph Smith is so easy available to anyone who goes looking for it. Christianity is shielded somewhat by it's age which makes untangling it a slow game, but Mormonism makes direct claims (almost within living memory) about pre-Columbian America which are demonstratably false. These claims are made by a man who has so obviously lifted the King James Bible including some of it's translation errors and pretended he's reading it from hidden tablets. Because you are raised in the faith and still believe it you don't see it or don't want to see it. But it obviously troubles you so much to ask the rest of us not to talk about the herd of elephants in the room.

Mormonism doesn't require awed discussion 'because it might just be true' for the same reason Scientology doesn't require it. Your faith is making extraordinary claims contrary to our understanding of history, archaeology, lingusitics, genetics and the movements of people. If you believe it to be truthful and for the concensus to be wrong then you must provide the evidence.

[afleitch]

To touch upon what fezzy outlined for me what is concerning about philosophical discussion is that it can never be brutally honest if certain subsets of philosophy with a god-head are given specialised treatment either in discourse or in many cases, through law. I could be a follower of Socrates; a 'Socratist' but am afforded no protection in my beliefs (and rightly so) other than the right to express them. But if I follow Buddha then there is somehow a distinction. Now I could be smart and start a 'church' and appeal to Socrates prophetic nature (his appeals to the 'oracle') and then I may have a chance of getting a reverance and a protection that was otherwise not afforded to me. Why? Because I have made that transition from the philosophic to the dogmatic. I have transformed thought into something material because now I can say 'I believe this and this is our place to assemble to share it.'

That is why it can be frustrating. I don't believe in gods, any gods. But I am willing to discuss thoughts, arguments and ideas. But I cannot do that honestly if I have to make a concession to the god-head or 'god-arm', to Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed as something 'greater' than Socrates or Marx. Nothing Jesus said or did affords him that concession. Nothing. But at times I am required to give it.

[afleitch]

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/06/1295941/mormon-churchs-new-homosexuality-resource-tells-gays-to-be-chaste-and-hopeful/?mobile=nc

Bit of PR work by the church here but this part striking:

'We believe that with an eternal perspective, a person’s attraction to the same sex can be addressed and borne as a mortal test. It should not be viewed as a permanent condition. An eternal perspective beyond the immediacy of this life’s challenges offers hope. Though some people, including those resisting same-sex attraction, may not have the opportunity to marry a person of the opposite sex in this life, a just God will provide them with ample opportunity to do so in the next. We can all live life in the full context of who we are, which is much broader than sexual attraction.'

Despite the fact that it is an extraordinarily offensive thing to say, I'm intrigued as to what theological gymnastics was applied to reach that conclusion?

[afleitch]

Great post, you "liberal" Mormon you. Thanks for taking the time to accommodate by "nosiness." How close are you to being in a state of heresy in The Church?  

Well, I'm putting in my papers to apply for a two-year mission, so you tell me.

Side note; I'll repeat this year as I have at other times; the missionary does not choose where they get to go for the two-year mission. The Church leadership does, and they don't tell you until a few weeks or months after your papers are finished. One of my friends went to the Oklahoma City Spanish-speaking mission. He had no clue beforehand that he'd go there.

Suprises can be worth it. Being sent to Scotland is how my former Mormon friend met his boyfriend

[afleitch]

Oh the English language. He's a former Mormon who is a friend

[afleitch]

Bumping this, with the added note that you're going to see LDS missionaries online now. New policy change. I'm doing a service mission so it doesn't apply to me, but normal missionaries are being allowed to talk to folks online now.

It would be nice to be left alone.