Doctor Who episodes, R. T. Davies period (2005-2010) survivor - Phase I Round 20

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Fear Her. It could have been So Bad It's Good, but it ended up missing that boat by a good margin.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I vote to eliminate Daleks In Manhattan, due to its large role in the villain decay of the Daleks. The Cult of Skaro deserved something more dignified than this.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I thought the Daleks had a certain charm as implacable killing machines. It's a nice break from the complexity of real life, if you will. That four Daleks were stuck hiding under Manhattan (a fact that was pointed out, even) was humiliating to them and made them seem less threatening in the long run. I thought it was a good story on its own terms, but I didn't like the effect it had on the greater saga.

     Ultimately, I concede that it may not be fair to blame any one story for the recent decline of the Daleks. Overall, they were just used too often. Any tack that would let them stay menacing in spite of such frequent appearances would probably be too pessimistic to work in Doctor Who.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't have strong feelings about either episode, so I'll just go with Daleks In Manhattan again.

    I thought the Daleks had a certain charm as implacable killing machines. It's a nice break from the complexity of real life, if you will. That four Daleks were stuck hiding under Manhattan (a fact that was pointed out, even) was humiliating to them and made them seem less threatening in the long run. I thought it was a good story on its own terms, but I didn't like the effect it had on the greater saga.

     Ultimately, I concede that it may not be fair to blame any one story for the recent decline of the Daleks. Overall, they were just used too often. Any tack that would let them stay menacing in spite of such frequent appearances would probably be too pessimistic to work in Doctor Who.

I agree. As a villain they really have ceased to be villainous (and this goes back to the 80's). One Dalek is not particualrly frightening and neither is a million; it's hard to get a happy medium - 'Dalek' got it balanced well.

Moffat has been wise to 'retire' the Dalek's though the first episode of the new series will feature every Dalek there has ever been so who knows if it will be a bit of a re-invention.

Well, personally, having watched only the new series I must say I have never found the Daleks particularly terrifying (except in "Dalek", by the point you see how terrified the Doctor himself is). They have long been overshadowed by the Angels, the Vashta Nerada, the Midnight thing or the Silence in terms of creepiness. IMO, the Daleks are in the show as a metaphor of evil and inhumanity. They don't need to be terrifying, they might even look utterly pathetic (the "do not blaspheme" bit in Doomsday is perfect in that regard). The remnants of the Skaro Cult in Daleks in Manhattan is a way to point out why the Daleks fail : because their conviction that dalekness equals perfection prevents them from evolving like every species does. And when one of them finally tries to, he ends up being rejected by his former mates (which he is genuinely trying to help). I thinks this story tells a lot of truth about fanaticism and hatred of difference, and is magnificently tragic this way.

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I liked The Lazarus Experiment. I'll vote The Unquiet Dead for now, so Lazarus will be safe to suck fluids another day.

     The thing is, the Daleks are built up to be a genuine menace in canon. They fought on equal terms with the Time Lords (& were implied to have been winning the Time War) and a small number of Daleks can easily defeat a large force of humans and Cybermen. While they are quite goofy (seriously, they have a plunger for an arm) and seriously flawed in their world view, they are also meant to be seen as formidable fighters.

     In reality, most enemies that the Doctor faces are essentially bugs that he doesn't just squash outright due to his strong sense of morality. The way he dresses down the Vashta Nerada when they try to threaten him at the end of Forest of the Dead reinforces that fact. The difference with the Daleks is that they (& the Master too, for that matter) can actually challenge the Doctor on equal terms. That the Daleks are so privileged in the story canon and yet command so little awe from the viewing audience is a waste of character potential.

I don't think the dangerousness of the Daleks has been downplayed in the series overall. Sure, they have their own truly pathetic moments (and yeah, Daleks in Manhattan is particularly full of these moments), but this (at least in my view) doesn't make them any less impressive when they show all their force. The best example is the expression on the faces of Jack, Martha, Sarah Jane and the others when they hear the Daleks' "message to humanity" in The Stolen Earth. As soon as they hear it, they know there's nothing they can do. And we're talking about the doctor's bravest and most determined companions. Sure, one of the reason they freak out is because the Doctor is seemingly unreachable, but still. Others enemies could be handled without the Doctor by such a badass team, but not the Daleks. As for the Doctor himself, his tendency to act in a nonchalant and mocking way doesn't mean he does not fear them. It happens a couple times that his true feelings toward the Daleks are made evident : in Dalek, of course, but also in every other Dalek episode to some extent. And, remember, they came very close to winning several times (in The Parting of the Ways they were only stopped by a nigh-almighty Rose, and in Journey's End, they just made the mistake not to care about Donna - but how could they have known that she had become part-timelord ?). And in Evolution of the Daleks itself, the Doctor himself at some point was genuinely resigned to their victory, to the point when he was offering himself to them to be killed.

Of course, the problem with the Daleks is that they always come back, get their ass kicked, then come back again, etc. But after all, the same happens to the Master as well (even though his appearances have been made scarcer in the new series).

     Which gets to my point. The Daleks are generally built up to be a grave threat. However, their constant appearances and rapid exterminations at the hands of the Doctor makes it hard for the audience to take them seriously and wastes the work of building them up. Between the pointlessness of the millions of Daleks that appeared at the end of Doomsday and the sheer ineffectualness of the Cult of Skaro in Daleks in Manhattan (who really would have had no difficulty just conquering the world), the middle of Davies's run was a real low point for the threat of the Daleks.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Yeah, I admit that's a huge plot hole in that episode. The Daleks, if as powerful as usual, certainly didn't need to hide. This probably can be justified in some way, like the "emergency time-travel" device consuming an insane amount of energy and leaving them near powerless, but you're right that this has been a low point in the Dalek's image. Still, I don't think that's near enough to dislike Daleks in Manhattan, because it's still an amazing story.

     I think it's something we'll have to agree to disagree on. I love the Daleks as villains, but the sheer number of Dalek stories and the specific flaws I mentioned about those episodes really sort of hampered my enjoyment of Dalek stories in general. Actually, I could talk about similar flaws in Journey's End as well. I notice that that one already got a vote in an earlier round.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Daleks In Manhattan

Also, anyone else realize that Daleks only really appeared as actual characters in one episode (Victory of the Daleks) of the Moffat era? In The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song they were more tools to propel the plot forward then the much-beloved Nazi allegories of old. I don't think that Moffat has the same sort of nostalgia for the old Doctor Who villians that RTD had.

Yeah, Moffat doesn't seem to be a huge fan of the Daleks. Or maybe he just wants to let them rest a bit, so that next time they appear it will be more sudden. But I don't like the way he treated them in The Pandorica Opens. The Daleks will not, ever, ally with any other species. Even if it's in order to beat the doctor. They are supposed to consider any other living being as an abomination whose sole existence is inherently immoral.

Anyways, I for one generally like the treatment of the Daleks by R T Davies. Maybe that's because I don't know the old series...

     I heard that he was letting them rest so they'd be "fresher", which is a notion that I agree with. Then again, he did have them appear briefly in The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song to do basically nothing but get trashed by River Song and the Doctor respectively. So who knows.

     Daleks sometimes do form temporary alliances to further their own ends (like enlisting the foreman in Daleks In Manhattan, actually). The trick is that they think absolutely nothing of betraying their partners when they decide that they are no longer useful.

     The thing that really bothered me in The Pandorica Opens was the sheer number of species who probably hadn't met the Doctor yet and couldn't travel through time. It's like we were meant to think that the Daleks bothered to bring back species like the Weevils, Judoon, Sontarans, &c. who were vastly inferior on a technological level and could serve no purpose but to stand there and look threatening.

     If it were up to me, the Daleks would have captured the Doctor themselves. Use an electrical holding field or something. Allow the Daleks to actually win something for once, since it ultimately wouldn't matter. It'd help their image out.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Protect 42

Also, anyone else realize that Daleks only really appeared as actual characters in one episode (Victory of the Daleks) of the Moffat era? In The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song they were more tools to propel the plot forward then the much-beloved Nazi allegories of old. I don't think that Moffat has the same sort of nostalgia for the old Doctor Who villians that RTD had.

Yeah, Moffat doesn't seem to be a huge fan of the Daleks. Or maybe he just wants to let them rest a bit, so that next time they appear it will be more sudden. But I don't like the way he treated them in The Pandorica Opens. The Daleks will not, ever, ally with any other species. Even if it's in order to beat the doctor. They are supposed to consider any other living being as an abomination whose sole existence is inherently immoral.

Anyways, I for one generally like the treatment of the Daleks by R T Davies. Maybe that's because I don't know the old series...

     I heard that he was letting them rest so they'd be "fresher", which is a notion that I agree with. Then again, he did have them appear briefly in The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song to do basically nothing but get trashed by River Song and the Doctor respectively. So who knows.

     Daleks sometimes do form temporary alliances to further their own ends (like enlisting the foreman in Daleks In Manhattan, actually). The trick is that they think absolutely nothing of betraying their partners when they decide that they are no longer useful.

     The thing that really bothered me in The Pandorica Opens was the sheer number of species who probably hadn't met the Doctor yet and couldn't travel through time. It's like we were meant to think that the Daleks bothered to bring back species like the Weevils, Judoon, Sontarans, &c. who were vastly inferior on a technological level and could serve no purpose but to stand there and look threatening.

     If it were up to me, the Daleks would have captured the Doctor themselves. Use an electrical holding field or something. Allow the Daleks to actually win something for once, since it ultimately wouldn't matter. It'd help their image out.

You finally got what you wanted...

You are certainly far more knowledgeable than I am about the show's history. I mostly agree with you, though I admit I didn't feel the Daleks' villain decay as you did due to not watching the old series. But I still love Daleks in Manhattan and find it unfair that it's gone before New Earth, Boom Town, The End of the World or The Unicorn and the Wasp... As the number of quotes and images I've posted might tell you.

I admit it would be fun to see a full fledged Dalek win for once. "Victory of the Daleks" was one, but one of limited consequences. I think a nice idea could be to handle it as the Master was in its return. The Sound of Drums was a continuous streak of failures and humiliations for the doctor, and he only gets better at the very end of Last of Time Lords. This clearly established the Master as a formidable genius.

     I've only seen one season of the old series, and one with no Dalek stories at that. I just noticed the big gap between their established threat level and their apparent threat level to the audience. Then I thought about why that was and realized that it had to do with how they were used. The Daleks just seemed more threatening in 2005 than in 2010.

     As someone said above, Dalek was a pretty good example of how to make the Daleks a scary enemy. Parting of the Ways was the beginning of the Dalek misusage, but they still managed to cause massive damage before being wiped out and come across as a grave existential threat. Doomsday was problematic, though. While the Cult of Skaro was badass, the help they got was pointless, and it established Dalek armies as being something completely disposable. Victory of the Daleks was the closest thing they've gotten to a real return to form since then.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Protect 42

Also, anyone else realize that Daleks only really appeared as actual characters in one episode (Victory of the Daleks) of the Moffat era? In The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song they were more tools to propel the plot forward then the much-beloved Nazi allegories of old. I don't think that Moffat has the same sort of nostalgia for the old Doctor Who villians that RTD had.

Yeah, Moffat doesn't seem to be a huge fan of the Daleks. Or maybe he just wants to let them rest a bit, so that next time they appear it will be more sudden. But I don't like the way he treated them in The Pandorica Opens. The Daleks will not, ever, ally with any other species. Even if it's in order to beat the doctor. They are supposed to consider any other living being as an abomination whose sole existence is inherently immoral.

Anyways, I for one generally like the treatment of the Daleks by R T Davies. Maybe that's because I don't know the old series...

     I heard that he was letting them rest so they'd be "fresher", which is a notion that I agree with. Then again, he did have them appear briefly in The Big Bang and The Wedding of River Song to do basically nothing but get trashed by River Song and the Doctor respectively. So who knows.

     Daleks sometimes do form temporary alliances to further their own ends (like enlisting the foreman in Daleks In Manhattan, actually). The trick is that they think absolutely nothing of betraying their partners when they decide that they are no longer useful.

     The thing that really bothered me in The Pandorica Opens was the sheer number of species who probably hadn't met the Doctor yet and couldn't travel through time. It's like we were meant to think that the Daleks bothered to bring back species like the Weevils, Judoon, Sontarans, &c. who were vastly inferior on a technological level and could serve no purpose but to stand there and look threatening.

     If it were up to me, the Daleks would have captured the Doctor themselves. Use an electrical holding field or something. Allow the Daleks to actually win something for once, since it ultimately wouldn't matter. It'd help their image out.

You finally got what you wanted...

You are certainly far more knowledgeable than I am about the show's history. I mostly agree with you, though I admit I didn't feel the Daleks' villain decay as you did due to not watching the old series. But I still love Daleks in Manhattan and find it unfair that it's gone before New Earth, Boom Town, The End of the World or The Unicorn and the Wasp... As the number of quotes and images I've posted might tell you.

I admit it would be fun to see a full fledged Dalek win for once. "Victory of the Daleks" was one, but one of limited consequences. I think a nice idea could be to handle it as the Master was in its return. The Sound of Drums was a continuous streak of failures and humiliations for the doctor, and he only gets better at the very end of Last of Time Lords. This clearly established the Master as a formidable genius.

     I've only seen one season of the old series, and one with no Dalek stories at that. I just noticed the big gap between their established threat level and their apparent threat level to the audience. Then I thought about why that was and realized that it had to do with how they were used. The Daleks just seemed more threatening in 2005 than in 2010.

     As someone said above, Dalek was a pretty good example of how to make the Daleks a scary enemy. Parting of the Ways was the beginning of the Dalek misusage, but they still managed to cause massive damage before being wiped out and come across as a grave existential threat. Doomsday was problematic, though. While the Cult of Skaro was badass, the help they got was pointless, and it established Dalek armies as being something completely disposable. Victory of the Daleks was the closest thing they've gotten to a real return to form since then.

Even in Victory of the Daleks the supposed greatest threat to all reality were almost defeated by 40s era Earth technology with what could only be 5 or 10 minutes of enhancement.

Also, I wish I had protected Turn Left instead of Boom Town. Much better episode.

     Yeah, the implausibly short timeframe was troubling. I suppose you could rationalize it by saying that Dalek technology was such a big step up that just 5 to 10 minutes of alterations was able to make the difference, though.

Yeah, the Genesis Ark in Doomsday was a big mistake. It literally had no point in the whole plot, and the only thing these Daleks had the occasion to do was to die. A shame, really (all the more because it was made evident that four Daleks could easily deal with all the cybermen). I see your issues with Dalek in Manhattan as well. The Daleks in Stolen Earth/Journey's end, however, were extremely powerful and threatening IMO. While Davros somewhat monopolized screen time at their expense, they were the real danger all along, and came insanely close at wiping out all of reality.

     They also neglected a perfectly good opportunity to exterminate the Doctor when they brought him aboard, even though, as the Doctor later suggested, the Daleks didn't really take Davros that seriously. While the Daleks were definitely a substantial threat there, I thought it also cast them as something of a hidebound bureaucracy. Not the worst injury to their image, but still less than ideal.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I'll go with eliminating Tooth And Claw, a very bland affair overall. I'd be perfectly fine with New Earth being eliminated instead, though.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Mmm, Boom Town. I'm not quite ready to quit picking on season 2.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I'll be daring and say Doomsday, due to its role in the Skaro degradations.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I'll go with Boom Town.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     There were some season four episodes that I want to boot, but those aren't them. I'll say The Unicorn and the Wasp.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Protect Planet of the Ood

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Some of my favorite episodes are in peril here. I'll vote to eliminate Boom Town.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Meh, I'll vote Doomsday. Because why not?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     The Next Doctor. I didn't really like the setting or the characters. The Cyber King was cool, though.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Planet of the Dead.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I vote to give immunity to Planet Of The Ood.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     School Reunion

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Whoops, I have been forgetting about this. I'll go with The Sontaran Stratagem/The Poison Sky, because I agree with Antonio that it is a rather dull experience overall.