SENATE BILL: Late-Term Abortion Restriction Act (On the President's Desk)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor: Marokai Blue

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

24 hours Blue oni (or would you be red? I can never remember how that works).

[Marokai Backbeat]

~80ish% of all abortions take place within the first trimester. The issue of when there is a full-fledged life is a difficult one for us to determine, or even if it is a meaningful life, but the third trimester, if no other point, must be when that distinction has been crossed. By that point, the woman carrying the child has had months to consider her options, and if the pregnancy has progressed that far, it is irresponsible, to me, if nothing else, to terminate the pregnancy without reason.

By the point of the third trimester, the pregnancy shouldn't be terminated unless there is no other option or the child has been determined by a doctor to be suffering a severe defect in some capacity. I don't like playing the "it's a life, it matters so much because life is beautiful" card, because I think it's overly sentimental and also utterly ridiculous at such an early point like the first trimester; but by this point, there almost certainly is a recognizable and meaningful "life" in there, and I find it senseless to eliminate it by then.

Almost all abortions will not be affected, there are numerous out-clauses for understandable reasons to terminate the pregnancy, we can even add support for adoption services for women who would otherwise have wished to abort the child, but abortion without medical reason at that point should be illegal.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I'll need to wade through our books a little on this one, unless someone wants to help me out... What are our existing abortion laws?

I personally believe abortion should be banned completely, but I understand that this bill is probably the closest we'll ever get to that goal. So I could be convinced to support it.

But Marokai—you said that by the third trimester, women would have had more than enough time to come to a decision re: the termination of their pregnancy. If that's the case, and if you maintain that a fetus in the third trimester has indeed crossed the threshold of being "a life," why would we allow for exceptions in the case of rape and incest? If we were going to put a blanket ban on abortion, I'd understand the need for those exemptions. However, under this legislation, abortion would still be a legal option for many months of any woman's pregnancy. I feel like it would be justified to say "sorry, too late" if she suddenly decided she wanted an abortion in her third trimester.

[tmthforu94]

I want to thank my at-large Senator for turning this proposal I gave him into an a bill.

I'll be honest - I wish there could be more restrictions on abortion, but with the overall nature of Atlasia and the Senate, I'm not sure what else could be accomplished. Right now, all abortions are legal in Atlasia to my knowledge. While this isn't perfect, it's a big step in the right direction.

[Napoleon]

This is far too strict for my liking. Frankly, I don't believe rights are there for something in a womb. This bill isn't fair. Do we really think women decide to wait until the 8th month to have an abortion "just 'cause"? At the very least there ought to be an exception for the health and well-being of the mother, but I still think the implications about a women's choice made by this bill are a little startling. 80% of abortions take place early because women don't want to carry something around for 30+ weeks before having their procedure done, for very, very obvious reasons.

Also, the penalty for doctors is extreme.

[Donerail]

Just popping in to express my full support for this legislation, which would grant to what are living people rights that are taken for granted by those outside of the womb; namely, the right to not be murdered. As for the penalty for doctors, while I don't think the left-wing Senate would like it, perhaps just define it as manslaughter? Regardless, this is excellent legislation and best hopes for a speedy passage.

[Gass3268]

This is far too strict for my liking. Frankly, I don't believe rights are there for something in a womb. This bill isn't fair. Do we really think women decide to wait until the 8th month to have an abortion "just 'cause"? At the very least there ought to be an exception for the health and well-being of the mother, but I still think the implications about a women's choice made by this bill are a little startling. 80% of abortions take place early because women don't want to carry something around for 30+ weeks before having their procedure done, for very, very obvious reasons.

Also, the penalty for doctors is extreme.

I agree with the opinion of our President.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Do we really think women decide to wait until the 8th month to have an abortion "just 'cause"?

I don't think many do, no. So, given the realities of when the distinction of "life" most likely crossed, why not prohibit it?

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I really feel like there's an exception here for just about every objectionable thing. Abuse, incest, defect, threatening of life. Something vague as "the health of the mother" just feels like a loophole. Having lower back pain because of your baby? Have an abortion!

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Because it's when they discover they're pregnant, consider their options, and seek out care. I'm not sure what point you're making here.

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Admittedly I lifted the prison penalty directly from another regional anti-abortion statute from the Wiki (which I'm not even sure still is in place). I'm willing to reduce the prison term, and perhaps the ban on practicing again, but not eliminating either of them.

I'll need to wade through our books a little on this one, unless someone wants to help me out... What are our existing abortion laws?

Basically there are no restrictions on abortion whatsoever in Atlasia, on the federal level.

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I tend to agree that by that point, all involved should have figured that stuff about by then. Even so, determining the child was conceived by incestuous means may take some time to determine, and I think it's probably better to keep the exceptions in place (not only to assist in it's passage..) just to cover our bases. I doubt the rape-exception would actually be used unless it was legitimate by the point of the third trimester.

[Napoleon]

Well, the day "just about every objectionable thing" can be "every objectionable thing" is the day I will be satisfied.

This "distinction of life" mambo-jumbo is also concerning. Does my right to life expire if my mother is raped? Or, are we actually making the clear distinction between a born-being and a fetus that does not have rights?

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

I'm not going to try to convince anyone on the abortion issue since I'm sure we all have our minds made up on this, but I will only consider supporting this bill if the penalty is a monetary fee instead.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

An amendment:

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[Redalgo]

I strongly support Ben's amendment and if it is made plan to vote in favor of the bill.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I accept the amendment as friendly.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

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Sponsor Feedback: Friendly
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[afleitch]

May I remind the Senate that according to the available data only 1.4% of terminations take place after 21 weeks (the beginning of the 'grey area' with regard to viability) and that the estimated number of terminations taking place after 24 weeks is 0.08%. The number of terminations taking place after 28 weeks (bearing in mind the exponential decline in abortions after the first trimster) is likely to be about 0.03-0.04% equating to less than several hundred in any one year. There is very little evidence that terminations of pregancies taking place after 28 weeks are taken for reasons other than for the exempted reasons outlined in the bill above (deformity, threats to health)

In effect the bill will effectively 'save' either no pregnancies to a handful. The impact is minimal.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Then I fail to see why some leftists in Atlasia are getting their knickers in a bunch.

[Napoleon]

Then I fail to see why some leftists in Atlasia are getting their knickers in a bunch.

Because we care about women even if they are stuck in a very rare and difficult situation?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

At the expense of a viable child's life because "location of the organism" trumps the qualities of the organism itself.

[afleitch]

My point is as the procedure is so rare that with a restriction in the law and the possibility of a penalty it makes the 'call' on whether to perform third trimester abortions a more difficult one for a doctor and a women to make. How do you judge 'threat to life'? The change in the law doesn't bother me too much, I just think it is unnecessary given how few are performed.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment has passed.


If you think that even those few cases of late abortion involve the destruction of human life, then is it really that hard for a bunch of lazy politicians to define what constitutes a "threat to life" considering what is at stake?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Oh come on, I figured someone would consider what I said atleast somewhat outrageous. Where is the life here, people? BEEF IT UP!!!

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Going off of what afleitch said, there's something I should mention: this legislation does not come with a price tag.  I'm not sure, exactly, how it would be determined if the late-term abortions are for saving the life of the mother, but I can imagine the inclusion of all the new red tape would be somewhat costly.  But to be honest, I don't know of any statute which dictates that bills like these need to have price tags.  Still, that is one of the reasons I am very unlikely to support this measure.

[Napoleon]

Oh come on, I figured someone would consider what I said atleast somewhat outrageous. Where is the life here, people? BEEF IT UP!!!

Considering that no one here is a medical professional,  its best we don't.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Yea, someone might have a heart attack from the intensity of the debate.