Why Israel’s Religious Leaders Oppose Reform Judaism

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/11/why-israel-s-religious-leaders-oppose-reform-judaism.html

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For once I'm actually interested in what NY Jew's take on something would be, though he isn't here now. But I found the article pretty interesting, even if somewhat depressing and with vile implications (especially as the author seems to agree with the sentiment, as evidenced by his bit in the middle about how children raised in Reform Judaism often...marry non-Jews! Oh the horror!) The concern the Orthodox rabbis in Israel have with racial purity is kind of ironic if you think about it, but something I was a bit familiar with due to ag's postings on Israel's discriminatory marriage laws. Even most American Jews would agree with the whole thing is pretty disgusting.

[後援会]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are. It's a big gap.

[danny]

I think the writer is way off the mark, and the writer is simply projecting what he wants to be true rather than what is reality.

Orthodox Judaism takes the Torah literally and believes that it must be followed to the letter, any form of Judaism which doesn't accept this is illegitimate.

The bible is opposed to intermarriages (Malachi 2:11, Ezra 10:10-11) so certainly this is one instance in which the reform Jews do not follow the bible, but so are many other cases, such as reform Jews not keeping the sabbath or Kosher. Orthodox generally oppose conservative Judaism for the same reason

[Insula Dei]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are. It's a big gap.

Theologically not that big of a gap, then?

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are. It's a big gap.

Theologically not that big of a gap, then?

No, it's more like the gap between Paganism and Atheism.

[Vosem]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are.

Judaism needs a Sanhedrin everyone actually takes seriously...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

Then it's pretty sad that we let such a bigot speak at the DNC. Imagine if some pastor refused to marry Christians and Jews. Neither party would want anything to do with them.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

Then it's pretty sad that we let such a bigot speak at the DNC. Imagine if some pastor refused to marry Christians and Jews. Neither party would want anything to do with them.

Things are different with minority populations, you know, especially ones where things like religion are explicitly (rather than tacitly) passed down via bloodline. Not necessarily good, but different.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Such an attitude is restricting on freedom for anyone raised in that religious minority.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Such an attitude is restricting on freedom for anyone raised in that religious minority.

Meh. To be sure it is. There are however often (not always, but often) reasons, good or bad, why people are 'bigots' (scare quotes used here because in this particular case I'm hesitant to use that term, not because it's not usually applicable), and especially when those people are members of a historically persecuted minority it behooves us to try to understand them.

[The Mikado]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are. It's a big gap.

It's far bigger, actually.  The cultural gap between a secular Reform Jew and an Orthodox Jew is bigger than the cultural gap between an evangelical Christian and a secular mainline Protestant by orders of magnitude in terms of the effect on one's life.  If you are an Orthodox Jew, that is who you are on a fundamental level.  A typical Orthodox Jew has to live somewhere that's within walking distance of his shul (congregation), in a likely 90%+ Orthodox Jewish neighborhood (due to the prohibition on driving on the Sabbath), wears distinctive clothing that sets himself apart from the rest of the population, and has to constantly interact with religious regulations in determining what to eat, what to say, who to interact with, etc. that they end up in a relatively small world.  These issues are doubled when dealing with serious ultra-Orthodox Haredim.  To come up with a comparison for Christians you'd need to compare a normal Christian to the Amish.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Such an attitude is restricting on freedom for anyone raised in that religious minority.

Meh. To be sure it is. There are however often (not always, but often) reasons, good or bad, why people are 'bigots' (scare quotes used here because in this particular case I'm hesitant to use that term, not because it's not usually applicable), and especially when those people are members of a historically persecuted minority it behooves us to try to understand them.

I'm a little sensitive toward such attitudes because according to my mom some of her relatives (very old at the time and none are alive today) were fussy about her getting married in a Lutheran church and even marrying a Lutheran at all. To give an even more extreme example of this that happened about 20 years earlier check out his first anecdote here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCJDXPV3xpU

 I don't know anyone in my family alive today who'd be like that, but then you still have people like the rabbi mentioned above. I just really dislike "ethnoreligion" in general. It gets even worse in other contexts, look at LDS culture, or lots of Muslim countries, or the BJP in India.

[memphis]

It has been my experience that Orthodox and Reform Jews really, really don't like each other. It's not just theological. It's personal. And it doesn't help that they largely live in different worlds where they are unlikely to encounter each other. Orthodox Jews are all about the bloodline. If your mother is Jewish, then your Jewish. And if she's not, you're not.  And before any Orthodox couple gets engaged, each family will do thorough research on the other to ensure a proper background. And not just to ensure the other party is Jewish. A history of divorce or mental illness or a "conversion" to practicing Orthodoxy are huge red flags, even if the conversion was many years ago. Orthodox personal ads seek FFB. Frum (religious) from birth. Reform Jews are usually just culturally Jewish. They are encouraged to question doctrine. They'll probably light candles at Hanukah and may attend Yom Kippur services, but are largely very liberal with an ACLU view of the world.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It has been my experience that Orthodox and Reform Jews really, really don't like each other. It's not just theological. It's personal. And it doesn't help that they largely live in different worlds where they are unlikely to encounter each other. Orthodox Jews are all about the bloodline. If your mother is Jewish, then your Jewish. And if she's not, you're not.  And before any Orthodox couple gets engaged, each family will do thorough research on the other to ensure a proper background. And not just to ensure the other party is Jewish. A history of divorce or mental illness or a "conversion" to practicing Orthodoxy are huge red flags, even if the conversion was many years ago. Orthodox personal ads seek FFB. Frum (religious) from birth. Reform Jews are usually just culturally Jewish. They are encouraged to question doctrine. They'll probably light candles at Hanukah and may attend Yom Kippur services, but are largely very liberal with an ACLU view of the world.

Well yeah just look at NY Jew and what he said for an example of how Orthodox feel. Basically he believed Reform Jews were equivalent to Nazi supporters. Enough said.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It has been my experience that Orthodox and Reform Jews really, really don't like each other. It's not just theological. It's personal. And it doesn't help that they largely live in different worlds where they are unlikely to encounter each other. Orthodox Jews are all about the bloodline. If your mother is Jewish, then your Jewish. And if she's not, you're not.  And before any Orthodox couple gets engaged, each family will do thorough research on the other to ensure a proper background. And not just to ensure the other party is Jewish. A history of divorce or mental illness or a "conversion" to practicing Orthodoxy are huge red flags, even if the conversion was many years ago. Orthodox personal ads seek FFB. Frum (religious) from birth. Reform Jews are usually just culturally Jewish. They are encouraged to question doctrine. They'll probably light candles at Hanukah and may attend Yom Kippur services, but are largely very liberal with an ACLU view of the world.

Well yeah just look at NY Jew and what he said for an example of how Orthodox feel. Basically he believed Reform Jews were equivalent to Nazi supporters. Enough said.

I'd be wary of considering NY Jew representative of, uh, anything.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

It has been my experience that Orthodox and Reform Jews really, really don't like each other. It's not just theological. It's personal. And it doesn't help that they largely live in different worlds where they are unlikely to encounter each other. Orthodox Jews are all about the bloodline. If your mother is Jewish, then your Jewish. And if she's not, you're not.  And before any Orthodox couple gets engaged, each family will do thorough research on the other to ensure a proper background. And not just to ensure the other party is Jewish. A history of divorce or mental illness or a "conversion" to practicing Orthodoxy are huge red flags, even if the conversion was many years ago. Orthodox personal ads seek FFB. Frum (religious) from birth. Reform Jews are usually just culturally Jewish. They are encouraged to question doctrine. They'll probably light candles at Hanukah and may attend Yom Kippur services, but are largely very liberal with an ACLU view of the world.

Well yeah just look at NY Jew and what he said for an example of how Orthodox feel. Basically he believed Reform Jews were equivalent to Nazi supporters. Enough said.

I'd be wary of considering NY Jew representative of, uh, anything.

His views and what he spoke of obviously came from somewhere and his environment, as Xahar noted frequently he was clearly quite sheltered (Do you think he had ever met an openly gay person for instance?) Of course he was clearly a bit, eh "unique" despite all this.

[ingemann]

The gap between Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism can compete with the difference between evangelical fundamentalism and uh...whatever you are. It's a big gap.

Really because when I look at BTRD's theology and evangelical fundamentalism as a traditional Protestant I really don't see the big difference purely theological.

[ingemann]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

Then it's pretty sad that we let such a bigot speak at the DNC. Imagine if some pastor refused to marry Christians and Jews. Neither party would want anything to do with them.

Things are different with minority populations, you know, especially ones where things like religion are explicitly (rather than tacitly) passed down via bloodline. Not necessarily good, but different.

...and we would all be up in arms if a Christian group did the same thing and calling them a cult. Maybe we should meassure all people by the same meassure.

[The Mikado]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

Then it's pretty sad that we let such a bigot speak at the DNC. Imagine if some pastor refused to marry Christians and Jews. Neither party would want anything to do with them.

Things are different with minority populations, you know, especially ones where things like religion are explicitly (rather than tacitly) passed down via bloodline. Not necessarily good, but different.

...and we would all be up in arms if a Christian group did the same thing and calling them a cult. Maybe we should meassure all people by the same meassure.

People get up in arms about the Amish?  (And at least Orthodox Jews use electricity six days a week)

[ingemann]

Interesting, because my rabbi, a gay marriage performing, DNC speaking, high profile Rabbi refuses to marry Jews and non-Jews.

Then it's pretty sad that we let such a bigot speak at the DNC. Imagine if some pastor refused to marry Christians and Jews. Neither party would want anything to do with them.

Things are different with minority populations, you know, especially ones where things like religion are explicitly (rather than tacitly) passed down via bloodline. Not necessarily good, but different.

...and we would all be up in arms if a Christian group did the same thing and calling them a cult. Maybe we should meassure all people by the same meassure.

People get up in arms about the Amish?  (And at least Orthodox Jews use electricity six days a week)

I personal do see Amish as a cult, but as they are not obnoxious about it, I'm happy to ignore them.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Amish aren't really the question here per se as they tend to completely ignore those outside of their community but rather some church that ostracized people for marrying Jews or non-Christians.

Here's a hypothetical. Let's say there's a couple of a Jew and a Christian. They decide to get married, and the Christian is OK with a Jewish wedding, so they go to the asshole bigot rabbi benconstine mentioned. He refuses to marry them. So they get married in a church instead from a Christian pastor.

Between the rabbi and the pastor, who was more restrictive on the freedoms of the Jew involved in the wedding?

Similarily the Israeli religious leaders opposing intermarriages are enemies of freedom to Jews and Israeli citizens (and unlike the aforementioned bigot unfortunately they aren't irrelevant, since Israel doesn't have a separate civil marriage law.) The victims of these people include Jews who wish to marry non-Jews. It's not a big a problem in the US where close to half of Jews marry non-Jews anyway and it's usually not controversial but read this about Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_marriage_in_Judaism#Jewish_opposition_to_mixed_marriages_between_Jewish_women_and_Arab_men

Anyone else reminded a bit of pre-Civil Rights Era south warning white women about the evils and dangers of black males?