Re: Arkansas GOPer: Slavery was a blessing in disguise for blacks

[Badger]

Actually, the vast majority of them were Democrats and stayed Democrats.  Even Thurmond was a Democrat before he became a Republican.  A few segregationists were Republicans, but they were still overwhelmingly Democrat.  I realize that both parties have had their civil rights failings and their civil rights triumphs, but Republicans were much stronger on civil rights for most of our history, and that is one reason (though not the only one) that I identify myself as a Republican.

Stop being a pedantic partisan hack.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

...it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.

Oldies, all white americans have a long history of racism - we live in a racist country built on genocide.  Every aspect of our culture, our identity, and all of our material possessions, land, and 'achievements' are blood-soaked and utterly spoiled.

Stop with the flaming.  I'm white and I'm not racist, and I don't think most white Americans are racist now.  If America is a racist country, then why did we fight a civil war to end the oppressive treatment of a race (even if it was traded for another form of oppression)?  Republicans, both black and white, consistently fought to advance civil rights, and Democrats consistently fought against it.  And where is this genocide that America is supposedly built on?  Your statement is one of the most vile ant-American diatribes that I have ever seen.

[Donerail]

...it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.

Oldies, all white americans have a long history of racism - we live in a racist country built on genocide.  Every aspect of our culture, our identity, and all of our material possessions, land, and 'achievements' are blood-soaked and utterly spoiled.

Republicans, both black and white, consistently fought to advance civil rights, and Democrats consistently fought against it.  And where is this genocide that America is supposedly built on?

Oldiesfreak, I'm going to give you a challenge. Go an entire week without associating Democrats with racism/the Confederacy. I honestly don't think you can do it. Please prove me wrong.

Also, isn't it Saturday or something and you can't post?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Sjoyce and opebo are right, though opebo goes a bit way too far, as usual.

[Oldiesfreak1854]

...it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.

Oldies, all white americans have a long history of racism - we live in a racist country built on genocide.  Every aspect of our culture, our identity, and all of our material possessions, land, and 'achievements' are blood-soaked and utterly spoiled.

Republicans, both black and white, consistently fought to advance civil rights, and Democrats consistently fought against it.  And where is this genocide that America is supposedly built on?

Oldiesfreak, I'm going to give you a challenge. Go an entire week without associating Democrats with racism/the Confederacy. I honestly don't think you can do it. Please prove me wrong.

Also, isn't it Saturday or something and you can't post?

I can't post until after sunset on Saturday.

[Spanish Moss]

From that guy's Wikipedia article:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What the...

The flag he's likely referring to, ironically, was never the Confederate flag - it was the Confederacy's Second Naval Jack flag which, nowadays, virtually everyone thinks was the Confederate flag.

This was the ACTUAL Confederate flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:CSA_Flag_2.7.1861-28.11.1861.svg&page=1

[Platypus]

...it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.

Oldies, all white americans have a long history of racism - we live in a racist country built on genocide.  Every aspect of our culture, our identity, and all of our material possessions, land, and 'achievements' are blood-soaked and utterly spoiled.

Stop with the flaming.  I'm white and I'm not racist, and I don't think most white Americans are racist now.  If America is a racist country, then why did we fight a civil war to end the oppressive treatment of a race (even if it was traded for another form of oppression)?  Republicans, both black and white, consistently fought to advance civil rights, and Democrats consistently fought against it.  And where is this genocide that America is supposedly built on?  Your statement is one of the most vile ant-American diatribes that I have ever seen.

a) The motives of the civil war are significantly more complex than you suggest, and you know that.

b) It always mystifies me how readily Americans forget how they came to take over the land from the Indigenous tribes. Everyone just completely ignores it, on both sides.

[Badger]

b) It always mystifies me how readily Americans forget how they came to take over the land from the Indigenous tribes. Everyone just completely ignores it, on both sides.

That's ironic coming from a (white) Austrailian.

[Platypus]

Who fully understands what happened in Australia.

People on both sides in Australia might approach the Indigenous situation differently, but everyone, from the least educated bogan to the History of Indigenous Economics professor, has an opinion. The opinions may be crude or unrealistically positive, but they exist, and indigenous Australia is nowhere near as completely ignored as in the US.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes, it's well understood to be the country's original sin, even if not always put in quite such negative terms.

[Badger]

Yes, it's well understood to be the country's original sin, even if not always put in quite such negative terms.

Yeah, one would have to look high and low to find a meaningful population of Americans who don't believe Natives were royally cheated and mistreated by European and (later) American settlers. This isn't 1956 anymore. Even the occassional choad who might argue how slavery was ultimately "good" for Africans likely wouldn't stretch that analogy to Native Americans.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Yes, it's well understood to be the country's original sin, even if not always put in quite such negative terms.

Yeah, one would have to look high and low to find a meaningful population of Americans who don't believe Natives were royally cheated and mistreated by European and (later) American settlers. This isn't 1956 anymore. Even the occassional choad who might argue how slavery was ultimately "good" for Africans likely wouldn't stretch that analogy to Native Americans.

The thing is, for us, these were both part of our original sin.

[Badger]

Yes, it's well understood to be the country's original sin, even if not always put in quite such negative terms.

Yeah, one would have to look high and low to find a meaningful population of Americans who don't believe Natives were royally cheated and mistreated by European and (later) American settlers. This isn't 1956 anymore. Even the occassional choad who might argue how slavery was ultimately "good" for Africans likely wouldn't stretch that analogy to Native Americans.

The thing is, for us, these were both part of our original sin.

Absolutely correct. Though would you agree that even while a substantial minority minimize the effects of slavery not many do so for the wholescale ethnic cleansing of Native Americans?

I think that has to do with the more politically-charged role of black-white relations in society compared to Anglo-Native relations. The debates (and occassional scapegoating) over affirmative action, welfare/government assistance, a black president, urban white flight, discrimination, poverty, etc. make it difficult for some to separate a rational historical analysis and discussion from these modern issues. Hence, we periodically find nimrods like this fellow from AR and his ilk who take minimizing the horrors of slavery as somehow being part and parcel with being politically "conservative" in 2012.

Conversely, in most parts of America there aren't substantial cohesive Native American communities that raise the same sort of hot button issues black and white relations do. Don't get me wrong--I'm fully aware that the same issues I previously mentioned infect Anglo-Native relations and politics in areas with large Native minority populations, like the Dakotas and parts of the SW. But those areas are far less populous in general--of both Anglos and Natives--than areas with substantial black minorities (i.e. most urban areas), just as Native Americans are comparitively only a sliver of the African-American population. Thus these hot-button issues tend not to pervade Anglo-Native relations at a nationwide level, but rather only a local or, at most, regional level.

Thus it's easier for whites nationwide to acknowledge the historical wholesale exploitation of Natives than it is to acknowledge the horrors of slavery, because relatively few whites are threatened by the perceived political and social encroachment of Natives the way some whites are threatened by black poltical and economic competition. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if there's notable minimization of the past wrongs perpetrated against Native Americans among whites in regions with substantial Native minorities. Maybe someone from such regions can shed more light here.

[Platypus]

Whether or not it is acknowledged that it happened 300 years ago really isn't the point.

My point is that everyone ignores the current situation of native Americans. Sure, it's not a huge segment of the population, but it is a particularly important one morally.

[GMantis]

All of the three assholes mentioned in this thread lost their election. So some good news from Arkansas for Democrats (and sane people).

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Given the mauling the Arkansas Dems took at all levels I was half expecting to see you reporting the opposite...

[k-onmmunist]

Oldiesfreak, do you believe the modern day German state and government is responsible for the actions of Germany in the past? Would you agree with someone boycotting Germany because of WWII?

No, but it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.  Does it not matter to you that Germany under the Nazis committed atrocities against Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and other "inferior" or "unwanted" groups during the Holocaust?  If it does, then why doesn't it matter to you that Democrats committed atrocities against blacks through the Ku Klux Klan, supporting slavery, Jim Crow laws, poll taxes, etc.?

And even if Lincoln did have some racist views (which I still doubt), he still recognized blacks as people.

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.” - Lincoln at the fourth debate with Stephen Douglas, 1858

i'm not even going to begin to address how stupid it is to associate the modern day democrat party with its history prior to the 1960s.

[memphis]

The thing about natives in the US is that they had already been decimated by smallpox by the time settlements were created. It was easy to see a virgin continent becuase even in the 17th century the colonies did not have a very large native population.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The thing about natives in the US is that they had already been decimated by smallpox by the time settlements were created. It was easy to see a virgin continent becuase even in the 17th century the colonies did not have a very large native population.

Right. American civilization is built on postapocalyptic ruins, which status can be traced back to European contact, but a lot of it was unintentional (if welcome from the European perspective). This doesn't, of course, excuse the immense moral crimes that the settlement process did entail, any more than shooting somebody magically becomes less bad if they're dying of a heart attack that you somehow caused.

[justfollowingtheelections]

I actually had a discussion once with a Republican who had similar beliefs.  Basically, what he believed was that blacks shouldn't complain about slavery because their better off in America than in Africa and he used the fact that Africans migrate to America all the time in search of a better life. 
My counterargument was that the slaves didn't come to America because they wanted to, which he accepted.

[Zioneer]

Actually, the vast majority of them were Democrats and stayed Democrats.  Even Thurmond was a Democrat before he became a Republican.  A few segregationists were Republicans, but they were still overwhelmingly Democrat.  I realize that both parties have had their civil rights failings and their civil rights triumphs, but Republicans were much stronger on civil rights for most of our history, and that is one reason (though not the only one) that I identify myself as a Republican.

Stop being a pedantic partisan hack.

Only if you guys will do the same.

Did you not see the 1964 map? Did you not see which specific states voted for the Republican in the race, and which voted for the Democrat? Think about it, why would the very deep South be the only states to vote for Goldwater?

[justfollowingtheelections]

...it certainly doesn't reflect well on them, just as the Democratic Party's long history of racism doesn't reflect well on them, either.

Oldies, all white americans have a long history of racism - we live in a racist country built on genocide.  Every aspect of our culture, our identity, and all of our material possessions, land, and 'achievements' are blood-soaked and utterly spoiled.

Stop with the flaming.  I'm white and I'm not racist, and I don't think most white Americans are racist now.  If America is a racist country, then why did we fight a civil war to end the oppressive treatment of a race (even if it was traded for another form of oppression)?  Republicans, both black and white, consistently fought to advance civil rights, and Democrats consistently fought against it.  And where is this genocide that America is supposedly built on?  Your statement is one of the most vile ant-American diatribes that I have ever seen.

Are you serious?  The murder of Native Americans and the enslavement of Africans do not qualify as genocide to you?

[justfollowingtheelections]

Yes, it's well understood to be the country's original sin, even if not always put in quite such negative terms.

Yeah, one would have to look high and low to find a meaningful population of Americans who don't believe Natives were royally cheated and mistreated by European and (later) American settlers. This isn't 1956 anymore. Even the occassional choad who might argue how slavery was ultimately "good" for Africans likely wouldn't stretch that analogy to Native Americans.

Oh yes they would.

[justfollowingtheelections]

Whether or not it is acknowledged that it happened 300 years ago really isn't the point.

My point is that everyone ignores the current situation of native Americans. Sure, it's not a huge segment of the population, but it is a particularly important one morally.

Considering that most of the so-called "Hispanics" are Native Americans or mestizos (part Native-Americans), I would say that they're a much bigger part of the population most are willing to admit they are.