US Taxpayers are Gouged on Mass Transit Costs

[krazen1211]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-26/u-s-taxpayers-are-gouged-on-mass-transit-costs.html

If the first segment of Manhattan’s Second Avenue subway opens on schedule in 2016, New Yorkers will be reminded that it was once “the line that time forgot” -- a project more than 75 years in the making, with no end in sight. It should be remembered for another failing as well: It will be one of the most expensive subways in the world.
Tunneling in any dense urban environment is an expensive proposition, but the $5 billion price tag for just the first two miles of the Second Avenue subway cannot be explained by engineering difficulties. The segment runs mainly beneath a single broad avenue, unimpeded by rivers, super-tall skyscraper foundations or other subway lines.
American taxpayers will shell out many times what their counterparts in developed cities in Europe and Asia would pay. In the case of the Second Avenue line and other new rail infrastructure in New York City, they may have to pay five times as much.




This is of course why certain types consistently babble about so called 'infrastructure' spending. They want to pay off those well connected unions to funnel back money into their political party.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is of course why certain types consistently babble about so called 'infrastructure' spending. They want to pay off those well connected unions to funnel back money into their political party.

Your craziness and paranoia is both hilarious and sad.

[Franzl]

Look at how f**king awful American infrastructure is. A lot of money IS needed to fix it.

[krazen1211]

This is of course why certain types consistently babble about so called 'infrastructure' spending. They want to pay off those well connected unions to funnel back money into their political party.

Your craziness and paranoia is both hilarious and sad.

Not paranoia, no. It is merely unfortunate that the unions can pillage the treasury with such ease.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

This is of course why certain types consistently babble about so called 'infrastructure' spending. They want to pay off those well connected unions to funnel back money into their political party.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

This is of course why certain types consistently babble about so called 'infrastructure' spending. They want to pay off those well connected unions to funnel back money into their political party.

No, Mr krazen, it is -- at least in my case -- because I experience the benefits of a good public transportation system and believe that it is a travesty that especially poor Americans are stuck with the heap of inks they currently have.

[bgwah]

I don't normally respond to Krazen's baiting, but I actually do find this to be a very interesting and important topic. And it reminds me how much the "copyright rule" we have on this forum can be twisted and used as a convenient excuse to only post portions of an article you like, and ignore those that do not fit into your narrative.

Here are some more quotes from the article that Krazen found it convenient to omit:

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Unions aren't mentioned in the article. Not even once. However, there are multiple references to private companies and contractors and their rampant corruption. And really, I'm not naive to believe unions don't play a role in this. They likely do. But if so they would be one of many factors. And isn't it interesting that the very article Krazen decides to use as evidence doesn't even mention them? Perhaps he's just hoping most won't actually read the article --- which I suppose is likely... Also funny that a lot of these countries doing it better than us are run by Socialist and Communist governments. What kind of message is Krazen trying to send?

But as someone who would like our country to invest in better mass transit, I did read the article, and it certainly doesn't lead one to the same conclusions as Krazen. In fact, what I see is the opposite. I see more and more private sector influence in government. Whoever donates the most money to political campaigns and lobbying gets their way. Yet Republicans seem to think Citizens United was a good ruling. I suspect it will just lead to more and more of this.

There are very specific problems we run into with infrastructure projects, many of which are mentioned in the article. These are problems that can and should be fixed. Quitting and letting our infrastructure crumble as some Republicans would prefer is just lazy and dishonest.

[Badger]

Krazy being grossly dishonest in his arguments? Perish the thought!

Nice one, Bgwah. That duplicitous thug won't even try to respond to defend this indefensable forgery, in a thread he started no less!

Good show, sir. Good show!

[krazen1211]

BGwah forgot to click part 2. Heh. Not surprised!


For the past 50 years, however, this progress has eluded passenger rail in the U.S. While unions and management squabble over wages and benefits, the overarching issue of labor productivity remains unresolved. The resulting high labor costs drag down service, prevent new lines from opening, and depress ridership and revenues.

The railroad’s reforms were thwarted by labor arbitrators and eventually a short strike, according to a 1998 report by John Allen of Chicago’s Regional Transportation Authority. Any trains with six or more cars were required to have three-person crews. Unable to make a profit amid declining ridership and high labor costs, the RTA started subsidizing Chicago regional-rail service along the Illinois Central in 1976, and bought the tracks outright in 1987.

[Badger]

THAT'S it?!? Your 'triumphant riposte'?

Laughable. Your reputation for inherent dishonesty goes unbesmearched.

[bgwah]

Well that was a well hidden "part 2" link. But the website refers to them as two separate articles, and I replied based off the one you linked to... So neener neener.

The second article does bring up an interesting point I've thought of before. The up-front construction costs for completely grade-separated rail (usually meaning subway or elevated) are higher than say, a streetcar or light rail, but because they are separated from automobiles they can be automated, thus greatly reducing labor costs for many decades.

I also  found this interesting:

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Many of the labor problems mentioned in the second article seem to appear only in older cities.   Washington is heavily unionized, but Seattle's new light rail line doesn't seem to have a lot of those oddities.

Once again, these are all fixable problems. We need more efficient government.

[Simfan34]

People who want to build infrastructure to provide union jobs or Keynesian stimulus should be hit with sticks. Infrastructure should be built because it's cool and new infrastructure helps the economy by merely existing.

[krazen1211]

THAT'S it?!? Your 'triumphant riposte'?

Laughable. Your reputation for inherent dishonesty goes unbesmearched.

I am sorry that you don't know what's in your own best interest.

[krazen1211]

Well that was a well hidden "part 2" link. But the website refers to them as two separate articles, and I replied based off the one you linked to... So neener neener.

The second article does bring up an interesting point I've thought of before. The up-front construction costs for completely grade-separated rail (usually meaning subway or elevated) are higher than say, a streetcar or light rail, but because they are separated from automobiles they can be automated, thus greatly reducing labor costs for many decades.

I also  found this interesting:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Many of the labor problems mentioned in the second article seem to appear only in older cities.   Washington is heavily unionized, but Seattle's new light rail line doesn't seem to have a lot of those oddities.

Once again, these are all fixable problems. We need more efficient government.

Well, yes, the glorious state of Washington does not burden its citizens with an income tax. In New Jersey and New York the Democratic party can't wait to drag out the income tax stick to beat its citizenry.

If your chumps wanted to fix these fixable problems they would have done so. But they are making money, of course.

[bgwah]

People who want to build infrastructure to provide union jobs or Keynesian stimulus should be hit with sticks. Infrastructure should be built because it's cool and new infrastructure helps the economy by merely existing.

I partially agree with you... But not with your anti-Keynesian point.

When there is a recession, government can build new infrastructure for less money because there isn't as much competition from the private sector for construction workers, materials, etc... Providing work for those unemployed construction workers is an added benefit.

[bgwah]

Well that was a well hidden "part 2" link. But the website refers to them as two separate articles, and I replied based off the one you linked to... So neener neener.

The second article does bring up an interesting point I've thought of before. The up-front construction costs for completely grade-separated rail (usually meaning subway or elevated) are higher than say, a streetcar or light rail, but because they are separated from automobiles they can be automated, thus greatly reducing labor costs for many decades.

I also  found this interesting:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Many of the labor problems mentioned in the second article seem to appear only in older cities.   Washington is heavily unionized, but Seattle's new light rail line doesn't seem to have a lot of those oddities.

Once again, these are all fixable problems. We need more efficient government.

Well, yes, the glorious state of Washington does not burden its citizens with an income tax. In New Jersey and New York the Democratic party can't wait to drag out the income tax stick to beat its citizenry.

If your chumps wanted to fix these fixable problems they would have done so. But they are making money, of course.

And Republicans are even worse with defense spending. Pick your poison, I guess. And it doesn't sound like my chumps (here in WA) are nearly as bad. But we're having trouble with the new 520 bridge, so maybe I shouldn't speak so soon. Though we don't know who is at fault yet, and it's looking more like a company cutting corners to save money than unions at this point.

[King]

Krazen, is there any discomfort in your life that you don't blame on unions?

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Krazen, is there any discomfort in your life that you don't blame on unions?

The ones he blames on minorities, see "war on whites" bullinks.

[Badger]

THAT'S it?!? Your 'triumphant riposte'?

Laughable. Your reputation for inherent dishonesty goes unbesmearched.

I am sorry that you don't know what's in your own best interest.

My 'own best interests'? Seriously, what the f%$k are you talking about? I honestly have no clue.

You've now added 'incomprehensible' to 'dishonest' among your list of discriptive adjectives.

[jaichind]

This absurd price tag is exactly what you get with labor unions and local machine politicans involved.   NY subway system used to be private, fairly efficient, and the most advanced in the world.  Then the NY city government came in and mandated that the price of the fare cannot rise above 5 cents to "help the poor people."  Over time with rising inflation that made these private subway operators unprofitable and they had to sell it to the NY city government which in turn raised the prices 10 and then 15 and then 20 cents which more than made up for inflation, which the private operators were not allowed to do, and then more (I wonder what happend to those poor people.)  Despite that this and continued price rises government-union controlled system continue to lose money and be one of the most inefficient systems in the world.  I use the NY subway system a lot and I have depressing debates about this with many of my friends.  I am for a steep rise in the fares to cover the real cost of operating the system and I will be glad to pay it.  My friends correctly point out that any price increase will be captured by the machine politicans plus unions and allow them to continue to operate this disaster with no improvement so there is no point. I had to concede their point and oppose a price increase but it is just sad.  Equally sad, with Obama's victory, I can see a smiliar story going to happen to the US healthcare system over the coming decades. 

[bedstuy]

This absurd price tag is exactly what you get with labor unions and local machine politicans involved.   NY subway system used to be private, fairly efficient, and the most advanced in the world.  Then the NY city government came in and mandated that the price of the fare cannot rise above 5 cents to "help the poor people."  Over time with rising inflation that made these private subway operators unprofitable and they had to sell it to the NY city government which in turn raised the prices 10 and then 15 and then 20 cents which more than made up for inflation, which the private operators were not allowed to do, and then more (I wonder what happend to those poor people.)  Despite that this and continued price rises government-union controlled system continue to lose money and be one of the most inefficient systems in the world.  I use the NY subway system a lot and I have depressing debates about this with many of my friends.  I am for a steep rise in the fares to cover the real cost of operating the system and I will be glad to pay it.  My friends correctly point out that any price increase will be captured by the machine politicans plus unions and allow them to continue to operate this disaster with no improvement so there is no point. I had to concede their point and oppose a price increase but it is just sad.  Equally sad, with Obama's victory, I can see a smiliar story going to happen to the US healthcare system over the coming decades. 

If the US healthcare system was anywhere near as efficient as the NYC subway, that would be a massive improvement.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

If you believe that non mass transit is cheap, I have a $6.3 billion half of a bay bridge to sell you.

[Franzl]

This absurd price tag is exactly what you get with labor unions and local machine politicans involved.   NY subway system used to be private, fairly efficient, and the most advanced in the world.  Then the NY city government came in and mandated that the price of the fare cannot rise above 5 cents to "help the poor people."  Over time with rising inflation that made these private subway operators unprofitable and they had to sell it to the NY city government which in turn raised the prices 10 and then 15 and then 20 cents which more than made up for inflation, which the private operators were not allowed to do, and then more (I wonder what happend to those poor people.)  Despite that this and continued price rises government-union controlled system continue to lose money and be one of the most inefficient systems in the world.  I use the NY subway system a lot and I have depressing debates about this with many of my friends.  I am for a steep rise in the fares to cover the real cost of operating the system and I will be glad to pay it.  My friends correctly point out that any price increase will be captured by the machine politicans plus unions and allow them to continue to operate this disaster with no improvement so there is no point. I had to concede their point and oppose a price increase but it is just sad.  Equally sad, with Obama's victory, I can see a smiliar story going to happen to the US healthcare system over the coming decades. 

If the US healthcare system was anywhere near as efficient as the NYC subway, that would be a massive improvement.

It's also important to note that far superior subway and mass transit systems in Europe are also government owned.

Compare to the private London tube.....one of the worst subways in Europe.

[jaichind]

If you believe that non mass transit is cheap, I have a $6.3 billion half of a bay bridge to sell you.

The question is not if mass transit is a good idea, clearly it is given certain demographic and geographic situations, it is more about how to run such a system.  I am for private ownership as being more efficient but I am open to government ownership given the massive capital costs involved.  My real objection are with government ownership the goal still has to be to extra surplus value and not let labor unions destroy insentives for greater efficiencies.

[jaichind]

If the US healthcare system was anywhere near as efficient as the NYC subway, that would be a massive improvement.

I must admit I do not understand a lot about the health industry or how efficient it is.  I suspect given all the government regulations in the USA it most likely it is now. My personal experiences with the health care industry has been very positive but I am shielded from the cost as my insurance pay for almost all of it (that is a bad idea as I should have an incentive to rationalize my use of it.)  My experience using the MTA has been very negative, I see silly things on a daily basis that would be easily fixed if it was a for profit system.  I work in software in NYC and it is well know in the developer space in NYC that working for the MTA is a good route toward a below average pay for a programmer but you will pretty much do nothing everyday.  That is typical of union dominated MTA.  I am fine with keeping it government controlled because I do not think any private concern would touch it now unless we also roll back decades of regulations as well.  But get rid of the unions and keep them out.