UN Votes to Recognize Palestine

[Sbane]

The Israelis have announced more settlement activity.

Who here is familiar with the chess term "zugzwang"?

Israel is just digging it's own grave. They have a powerful backer now, but that might not always be the case.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Israelis have announced more settlement activity.

Who here is familiar with the chess term "zugzwang"?

Israel is just digging it's own grave. They have a powerful backer now, but that might not always be the case.

Hell Hillary has already condemned their settlement plans: http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/international/02-Dec-2012/hillary-clinton-blasts-israel-settlement-expansion-plans

[Frodo]

Israel is running short on allies -first they lost Turkey.  Now, they may be losing Germany as well:

Israelis stunned by Germany's abstention on U.N. Palestine vote

By Sheera Frenkel
McClatchy Newspapers

JERUSALEM — Israeli officials had long known they would be on the losing end of the U.N. General Assembly's vote on whether to grant Palestine official status as a nonmember observer state. Palestinian officials months ago had said they had gathered enough votes to win the declaration.

But it wasn't until the final votes were cast Thursday that Israeli officials realized how lopsided the outcome would be. Most stinging of all was the decision by Germany, long one of Israel's most dependable international supporters, to abstain rather than vote against the declaration.

"Germany has historically been one of our staunchest allies in Europe," said a senior Israeli diplomat who agreed to discuss the issue on condition of anonymity. "It was truly a shock they would abstain." 

[Sbane]

If they continue dickish behavior like building settlements, eventually they will lose all their allies, including the United States. Even now, outside of evangelicals, most Americans are pretty ambivalent about the situation. The Palestinians need a Gandhi/Mandela/Martin Luther King sort of figure. Are they capable of it?

[Frodo]

If they continue dickish behavior like building settlements, eventually they will lose all their allies, including the United States. Even now, outside of evangelicals, most Americans are pretty ambivalent about the situation. The Palestinians need a Gandhi/Mandela/Martin Luther King sort of figure. Are they capable of it?

I am hardly bigoted towards Muslims or Jews (unlike some here...), but even they have to admit -neither faith encourages the 'turning of the cheek' when your enemies strike at you.  

[Orion0]

lolcanada

It's great to know that Dear Leader is still hard at work at destroying our formerly very good reputation around the world. Hardly surprising, of course, his foreign policy is basically selling his province's oil.

What reputation? Canada is a non-entity for much of the world's power relations. 35th in terms of population. Poland, Argentina, Algeria, Kenya, etc have more population. No real power at the UN. The only thing our previous reputation was any good for was boosting support for Canada's interventionist foreign policy at home (just call it peacekeeping and forget the peacemaking aspects), as nationalism is a powerful motivator in a primarily immigration-based economic climate.

As for the rest of your bs, Harper is from Ontario, and selling Albertan oil benefits all Canadians in terms of more government revenue as higher taxes creates a further burden on the economy, so faced with exporting oil vs raising taxes it's clear which is the superior choice, world demand for oil is not falling anytime soon. Not to mention more labour ie real employment is required to process and move the bitumen. We currently have to sell at discounted rates as there is no way to further increase exports, this is to the tune of about 60 billion annually. So I suggest you re-educate yourself before making factually inaccurate and incredibly biased statements about Canada.

Israel doesn't need allies, they need people to understand their situation without resorting to basic fallacies. Palestine will not be satisfied with concessions, it will always be asking for more. Recently I heard someone refer to the conflict between Israel and Palestine as a kindergarten argument, they should just shake hands and move on. Unfortunately many see this conflict as just a handshake or treaty signing away. Which could not be further from the truth.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Harper is indeed originally from Toronto but has lived in Alberta since college and it's blatantly obviously the province with which he's most strongly associated.

[Orion0]

Harper is indeed originally from Toronto but has lived in Alberta since college and it's blatantly obviously the province with which he's most strongly associated.

Yawn. The leftist double standard. If I were to move to Ontario, establish a home, run for legislature, every one of my opponents would harp about my Albertan values, whatever those are perceived to be. Fact is, Harper is not as pro-Alberta business as you'd like to believe. He has a track record of being more willing to pander for ontarian votes than western ones.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Harper is indeed originally from Toronto but has lived in Alberta since college and it's blatantly obviously the province with which he's most strongly associated.

Yawn. The leftist double standard. If I were to move to Ontario, establish a home, run for legislature, every one of my opponents would harp about my Albertan values, whatever those are perceived to be. Fact is, Harper is not as pro-Alberta business as you'd like to believe. He has a track record of being more willing to pander for ontarian votes than western ones.

'Leftist double standard'? What on Earth does a 'leftist double standard' have to do with what province somebody is from? Plain fact is that Harper is associated with the province he has spent his entire adult life in and has represented in the House of Commons on and off for twenty years, rather than the province he left for greener (or oilier) pastures after dropping out of his first university. This is just the way it is. Also, the staggering margins that Harper and his cronies run up in Alberta indicates that either he does a fine job of pandering for Western votes, 'more willing' or otherwise, or he has no need to and hence can focus on pandering for votes elsewhere. (Barack Obama doesn't notably pander to blacks on the South Side of Chicago, nor David Cameron to toffs in rural Oxfordshire. Showing favor once elections are duly won is, of course, another matter.)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So if Harper isn't from Alberta, does that mean Obama isn't from Illinois, both Bushes aren't from Texas, Hillary isn't from Arkansas or New York, etc.?

[© tweed]

very Atlasian of us for this thread to devolve into a discussion of Steve Harper's proper home province.

[Hatman 🍁]

Stephen Harper was born at a Madrassah in Leaside. Everyone knows that.

But seriously, this is deeply shameful to Canada. Even my conservative-leaning Dad was disappointed in this news. I reassured him by telling him that Mulcair would've probably done the same. (actually, he probably would've had us abstain).

[Tender Branson]

The Austrian President on voting for the Palestinians (while Germany abstained):

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Franzl]

how very Austrian

[Silent Hunter]

I made a realisation today - I don't think Bibi wants the 1967 borders because he doesn't think they're ultimately defensible if the Palestinians were to become determined to destroy Israel - it's less than 15 miles from the western border of the West Bank to the centre of Tel Aviv. Many of us commute further.

Remember that when faced with a possible attack on those borders (the ceasefire lines from 1948), Israel struck first and in 1973, operating on the current borders, came pretty close to using nukes.

[politicus]

I made a realisation today - I don't think Bibi wants the 1967 borders because he doesn't think they're ultimately defensible if the Palestinians were to become determined to destroy Israel - it's less than 15 miles from the western border of the West Bank to the centre of Tel Aviv. Many of us commute further.

Remember that when faced with a possible attack on those borders (the ceasefire lines from 1948), Israel struck first and in 1973, operating on the current borders, came pretty close to using nukes.

Yeah, its the eternal dilemma. Israel needs the West Bank and the Golan Heights to be secure, but as long as they keep them, almost the entire international community will be against them. If they withdraw they get no real security guarantees (apart from their own nukes) and the Palestinians will still hate them.

Its a shame they didn't conquer all of Palestine in 1948, that might have prevented the unrealistic idea of two hostile states sharing such a tiny territory.

[Velasco]

Is it more realistic the status quo, that is to say, the occupation? I believe that the long-term dilemma will be if a Jewish state can remain coexisting with the Palestinian one or if the demographic reality will end being imposed in a single state.

[politicus]

Is it more realistic the status quo, that is to say, the occupation? I believe that the long-term dilemma will be if a Jewish state can remain coexisting with the Palestinian one or if the demographic reality will end being imposed in a single state.

Neither solution is really viable. I fear Israel will use ethnic cleansing in the end leading straigth to war.
 
You need to include different element if you are to solve the problem, such as the Arab nations integrating part of the Palestinian population in their own. Most likely via a Palestinian takeover of Jordan where they already form the majority. Jordan is much less heavily populated, but has limited water resources, so thats not going to be easy. The Gulf states shoud take their share too. Perhaps better living conditions elsewhere combined with Israeli pressure could get the young Palestinians to immigrate. Right now they are mostly stuck.

A NATO membership for Israel could possibly work as a strong enough security guarantee to compensate for the loss of the West Bank, but again, not going to happen.
Anyway the Golan Heights needs to be permanently integrated in Israel. Syria needs to get realistic on this issue, but its not likely.

[morgieb]

What would happen if Israel started war? That could lead to a international catastrophe.

[Velasco]

Neither solution is really viable. I fear Israel will use ethnic cleansing in the end leading straigth to war.
  
You need to include different element if you are to solve the problem, such as the Arab nations integrating part of the Palestinian population in their own. Most likely via a Palestinian takeover of Jordan where they already form the majority. Jordan is much less heavily populated, but has limited water resources, so thats not going to be easy. The Gulf states shoud take their share too. Perhaps better living conditions elsewhere combined with Israeli pressure could get the young Palestinians to immigrate. Right now they are mostly stuck.

A NATO membership for Israel could possibly work as a strong enough security guarantee to compensate for the loss of the West Bank, but again, not going to happen.
Anyway the Golan Heights needs to be permanently integrated in Israel. Syria needs to get realistic on this issue, but its not likely.

It doesn't look like to me a realistic solution proposing that the countries in the vicinity should receive the Palestinians. Jordan has a Palestinian majority nowadays, with the consequent tensions with the authocthonous Bedouin communities. In the Lebanon 400 thousand of Palestinian refugees aren't even allowed to become citizens. Don't need to remember Shabra and Shatila. In addition it's a terrible injustice: they also have the right to the land that Israel denies to them, especially the West Bank. Israel will have to accept the two states solution or integrate the Palestinians as citizens with equal rights, at least theoretically.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2012/11/save_your_kisses_for_me.html

This article is all that is good and bad about Curtis (please ignore that bit about Arendt). But it did confirm pretty much everything I've thought about the situation in the ME... and then some.

[k-onmmunist]

I made a realisation today - I don't think Bibi wants the 1967 borders because he doesn't think they're ultimately defensible if the Palestinians were to become determined to destroy Israel - it's less than 15 miles from the western border of the West Bank to the centre of Tel Aviv. Many of us commute further.

Remember that when faced with a possible attack on those borders (the ceasefire lines from 1948), Israel struck first and in 1973, operating on the current borders, came pretty close to using nukes.

once again, i believe egypt annexing gaza and jordan annexing west bank would be a preferable solution (though an unlikely one at this point)

[Silent Hunter]

What would happen if Israel started war? That could lead to a international catastrophe.

They started the war in 1967 - didn't do them too much harm.

[Insula Dei]

*Wonders aloud whether I'd feel called upon to come up with my plan to solve the Palestinian problem if I had even a drop of British blood in my life. Realizes that some people lack all shame*

[k-onmmunist]

What would happen if Israel started war? That could lead to a international catastrophe.

They started the war in 1967 - didn't do them too much harm.

pre-emptively. the arabs were going to attack first.

*Wonders aloud whether I'd feel called upon to come up with my plan to solve the Palestinian problem if I had even a drop of British blood in my life. Realizes that some people lack all shame*

?