Travesty: Abhisit Vejjajiva charged with 'murder'

[Lief 🗽]

The worst approach, which is unsurprisingly the one you appear to prefer due to your own concupiscent selfishness (or selfish concupiscence, it's all the same), is the one taken by the countries in blue on this map.

What's wrong with banning organized (ie, exploited) prostitution?

The prostitute are charged for soliciting customers, the customer isn't charged, as he did nothing illegal.

In Canada, note than the Ontario courts stuck down the law, Government is appealing.

That sucks, yeah. However, I would say that ideally laws should punish customers and pimps, while leaving prostitutes alone (ideally, offering them opportunities for another professional orientation).

Why treat potentially distasteful manual labor involving a vagina any differently from potentially distasteful manual labor involving one's hands? Surely you don't advocate saving female janitors or factory workers and "offering them opportunities for professional orientation"? At least a prostitute gets paid considerably more (a prostitute in a place with sensible laws, at least).

[Lief 🗽]

The worst approach, which is unsurprisingly the one you appear to prefer due to your own concupiscent selfishness (or selfish concupiscence, it's all the same), is the one taken by the countries in blue on this map.

What's wrong with banning organized (ie, exploited) prostitution?

The prostitute are charged for soliciting customers, the customer isn't charged, as he did nothing illegal.

In Canada, note than the Ontario courts stuck down the law, Government is appealing.

That sucks, yeah. However, I would say that ideally laws should punish customers and pimps, while leaving prostitutes alone (ideally, offering them opportunities for another professional orientation).

Why treat potentially distasteful manual labor involving a vagina any differently from potentially distasteful manual labor involving one's hands? Surely you don't advocate saving female janitors or factory workers and "offering them opportunities for professional orientation"? At least a prostitute gets paid considerably more (a prostitute in a place with sensible laws, at least).

Short answer is that selling your body is very damaging to your health, at least if you do it over an extended period of time. There are severe long term psychological effects of being a prostitute. The myth of the happy whore is indeed a myth.
As I understand it the main problem is that prostitutes block the contact between body and mind when they are with a customer to endure it, this practice is psychologically very problematic in the long run. Prostitutes are also very exposed to violence, rape and other kinds of abuse.
The problems factory workers encounter are psychical and generally much less severe.

There are plenty of jobs that are damaging to your health, both physically and psychologically. Scrubbing toilets for your entire life isn't very fun. Working in a coal mine isn't fun. I don't see anyone advocating that we outlaw those jobs or find all the janitors and coal miners new professions. A lot of prostitution is exploitative (though far from all; there are many prostitutes who enjoy their job or at least tolerate it as much as anyone with a normal job does theirs), but so are many other manual labor occupations. The only reason that a distinction exists is because of out-dated moralistic concerns that constrain sexual behavior and expression.  

There are problems with the working conditions of prostitutes and with sex slavery/trafficking. Those are real concerns. But these are analogous to safety concerns or slavery in any other profession. Prostitution, in and of itself, is not the problem.

[Lief 🗽]

Because it is indisputable that, in 90% of cases, prostitutes are the victims of merchandised sex rather than their beneficiaries. Of course they get paid for that, so what? Most of them do this job because they feel this is their only opportunity to maintain economic security, and, as Politicus pointed out, this activity physically and psychologically degrades them.

Again, this is true of most menial jobs. Distinguishing menial labor that involves sex from menial labor that does not is simply an arbitrary moral judgment.

[Lief 🗽]

It's always fun to see certain Swedes butt into threads to label people racists/sexists/anti-semites/whatever he feels like today.

Wait, no, tiresome. Tiresome is the word I was looking for there.

[Lief 🗽]

Because it is indisputable that, in 90% of cases, prostitutes are the victims of merchandised sex rather than their beneficiaries. Of course they get paid for that, so what? Most of them do this job because they feel this is their only opportunity to maintain economic security, and, as Politicus pointed out, this activity physically and psychologically degrades them.

Again, this is true of most menial jobs. Distinguishing menial labor that involves sex from menial labor that does not is simply an arbitrary moral judgment.

Obviously, it is a moral judgment. As I said earlier, it is derived from the belief that sexuality is one of the most fundamental aspect of our experience as humans, and, as such, should be particularly cherished and protected against abuses of any kind.

But tell me, Lief, isn't any policy ultimately the result of a moral judgment? Tell me, for example, why do you support universal health care? Don't you do so because you hold the moral judgment that health care is a fundamental human right?

There's a degree of moral judgment, sure, but there are also policy considerations. It's good public policy and good economics for a country's citizens to be healthy and for there not to be large disparities between those without access to healthcare and those with it.

But the public policy considerations when it comes to prostitution run against your moral judgment. Legalizing and regulating the profession and protecting sex workers, just like we do with all other jobs, is the best way to protect their welfare.

[Lief 🗽]

It's always fun to see certain Swedes butt into threads to label people racists/sexists/anti-semites/whatever he feels like today.

Wait, no, tiresome. Tiresome is the word I was looking for there.

It often is, which is why it's especially refreshing when he's completely on-point, like right now.

Not really. I'm not advocating "radical, free-market libertarianism," and I'm not the one arguing that laws should restrict women's sexual expression and ownership of their labor (nor should laws be passed doing the same for male prostitutes!).

[Lief 🗽]

Because it is indisputable that, in 90% of cases, prostitutes are the victims of merchandised sex rather than their beneficiaries. Of course they get paid for that, so what? Most of them do this job because they feel this is their only opportunity to maintain economic security, and, as Politicus pointed out, this activity physically and psychologically degrades them.

Again, this is true of most menial jobs. Distinguishing menial labor that involves sex from menial labor that does not is simply an arbitrary moral judgment.

Obviously, it is a moral judgment. As I said earlier, it is derived from the belief that sexuality is one of the most fundamental aspect of our experience as humans, and, as such, should be particularly cherished and protected against abuses of any kind.

But tell me, Lief, isn't any policy ultimately the result of a moral judgment? Tell me, for example, why do you support universal health care? Don't you do so because you hold the moral judgment that health care is a fundamental human right?

There's a degree of moral judgment, sure, but there are also policy considerations. It's good public policy and good economics for a country's citizens to be healthy and for there not to be large disparities between those without access to healthcare and those with it.

But the public policy considerations when it comes to prostitution run against your moral judgment. Legalizing and regulating the profession and protecting sex workers, just like we do with all other jobs, is the best way to protect their welfare.

Then all we disagree on is the advantages/disadvantages ratio of legalization. I think that the latter outweigh the former, while you think the opposite. It's a complex issue and I understand the opposing arguments.

Anyways, I'm glad that you admitted that moral judgments do have a role in politics.

My point is that by imposing your moral judgments on sex workers you are hurting them. Marginalization and stigmatization of sex work (as opposed to treating it like any other work, and affording sex workers the same labor rights as other workers) because it offends your notions of what sex should be actively hurts them, because it denies them basic legal rights (protections against not being paid, workplace discrimination, abuse, rape by their clients, etc.). It's fine that you (and many others) define sex in that way, but by using that definition to inform public policy, you end up hurting the very "victims" you seek to protect. Essentially you are placing the protection of sex as this ideal over the protection of actual people in the sex worker industry.

With regards to your moral judgment point, I'm not sure how what you're proposing is any different from those that think that contraception and sodomy should be illegal (you presumably disagree with these people, yes?) because they deem it morally wrong and degrading to their ideal of sexuality?

[Lief 🗽]

Politicus:

It is certainly true that prostitutes in countries where the law marginalizes and does not protect them and they are forced on to the streets generally exhibit pretty severe psychological damage. But in countries where prostitution has been fully legalized and treated like any other work (with the same legal protections, rights and responsibilities) and most prostitutes work in the much safer (both physically and psychologically) location of brothels, these psychological harms aren't anywhere near as apparent, and in fact some studies show that escorts and brothel workers gain psychological rewards and empowerment through their work.

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"Burnout Among Female Indoor Sex Workers." (in Netherlands)

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"The Mental and Physical Health of Female Sex Workers: A Comparative Study" (in New Zealand)

Unfortunately, most academic writing on prostitution has focused solely on street workers, and then applied these conclusions to all sex workers (even though, at least in western countries, the vast majority of prostitutes work indoors). This article includes a very good comparison of street workers and brothel workers/escorts, showing that on basically every measure (safety, psychological health, community impact, etc.) the latter are better off.

Also there's no need to be so condescending.

[Lief 🗽]

It's always funny to see presumed left-wingers suddenly argue that people working in degrading jobs where they get exploited is a great thing.

Your English language reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

I hope to respond to your post when I have the time, Politicus.