Shooting at CT elementary school leaves at least 27 dead, 18 of them children

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

i don't see how gender has anything to do with this. i do see how the fact it's so easy to get a deadly weapon does.

Cmon. Has where ever been a female school shooter? If so, at least the gender ratio regarding mass murder is extremely skewed.

i'm sure there has, somewhere in the world. and yes, it is skewed, but what's your point? the best thing to do with regards to that would be to stop encouraging males to be aggressive and competitive, but we can't have that. that would be too threatening to the status quo.

Well, yeah. What amused me is that Ronnie's attempt at reductio ad absurdum failed because the 'absurdum' was in fact another entirely legitimate and serious social problem--namely the connection between violence and constructions of masculinity in not only America but a wide variety of countries and cultures throughout the world.

[Brittain33]

What does the 1885 invention date signify? There were horrible massacres conducted starting around that date in the Plains and in Africa. The first major war after that date was WWI and the slaughter caused by guns was a shocking change.

[k-onmmunist]

i don't see how gender has anything to do with this. i do see how the fact it's so easy to get a deadly weapon does.

Cmon. Has where ever been a female school shooter? If so, at least the gender ratio regarding mass murder is extremely skewed.

i'm sure there has, somewhere in the world. and yes, it is skewed, but what's your point? the best thing to do with regards to that would be to stop encouraging males to be aggressive and competitive, but we can't have that. that would be too threatening to the status quo.

Well, yeah. What amused me is that Ronnie's attempt at reductio ad absurdum failed because the 'absurdum' was in fact another entirely legitimate and serious social problem--namely the connection between violence and constructions of masculinity in not only America but a wide variety of countries and cultures throughout the world.

i think it's linked to this inherently destructive belief that competition is good and natural though and that co-operation is some kind of pipe dream. it's encouraged through masculinity, and the very narrow spectrum with which males can express themselves - i know first hand how much those expectations can be damaging.

[politicus]

i don't see how gender has anything to do with this. i do see how the fact it's so easy to get a deadly weapon does.

Cmon. Has where ever been a female school shooter? If so, at least the gender ratio regarding mass murder is extremely skewed.

I'm sure there has, somewhere in the world. and yes, it is skewed, but what's your point? the best thing to do with regards to that would be to stop encouraging males to be aggressive and competitive, but we can't have that. That would be too threatening to the status quo.

Well, why not try? As a general rule countries with macho cultures are more violent than countries with less aggressive ideals of masculinity. Of course Norway, which is far from being a macho country, produced Breivik, so it wouldn't solve the problem but its worth considering.
The US ideal of masculinity is pretty aggressive and it might be at least part of the explanation why these things occur so much in the States combind with others factors such as lack of mental health care, easy availability of guns and a highly competitive social model that produces a high amount of losers and alienated people.
It is of course a difficult issue because being competitive and (therefore to a certain extent aggressive) is also a trait that is highly beneficial in the economy, development of science etc., but ideally it should be possible to foster a low-aggression competitive spirit.
At least there is no prove that less aggressive cultures cant compete with more macho cultures internationally.

For the record: I know that you cant just "change" a whole culture, but this is an aspect worth looking into.

[k-onmmunist]

i don't see how gender has anything to do with this. i do see how the fact it's so easy to get a deadly weapon does.

Cmon. Has where ever been a female school shooter? If so, at least the gender ratio regarding mass murder is extremely skewed.

I'm sure there has, somewhere in the world. and yes, it is skewed, but what's your point? the best thing to do with regards to that would be to stop encouraging males to be aggressive and competitive, but we can't have that. That would be too threatening to the status quo.

Well, why not try? As a general rule countries with macho cultures are more violent than countries with less aggressive ideals of masculinity. Of course Norway, which is far from being a macho country, produced Breivik, so it wouldn't solve the problem but its worth considering.
The US ideal of masculinity is pretty aggressive and it might be at least part of the explanation why these things occur so much in the States combind with others factors such as lack of mental health care, easy availability of guns and a highly competitive social model that produces a high amount of losers and alienated people.
It is of course a difficult issue because being competitive and (therefore to a certain extent aggressive) is also a trait that is highly beneficial in the economy, development of science etc., but ideally it should be possible to foster a low-aggression competitive spirit.
At least there is no prove that less aggressive cultures cant compete with more macho cultures internationally.

For the record: I know that you cant just "change" a whole culture, but this is an aspect worth looking into.

i know, i was saying that in the eyes of those who control education, government etc. it's too threatening to them to have the idea of co-operation. i'm strongly in favour of trying to blur the boundaries of gender and have a society where people can identify however they want. strongly defined systems which encourage competition and aggression will always lead to sick societies such as the ones we live in today.

[Holmes]

Is this finally what it takes?

[Silent Hunter]

What does the 1885 invention date signify? There were horrible massacres conducted starting around that date in the Plains and in Africa. The first major war after that date was WWI and the slaughter caused by guns was a shocking change.

Nothing in particular - the US has a law that anything made before 1898 can be freely sold without ATF notification, which is really just an arbitrary date.

[ilikeverin]

I hate to have to ask this, but don't American schools all have some kind of campus police / security people running around. Or does that not apply to primary schools?

No. If it's in a good neighborhood you can probably walk right in and wander around.

That wasn't true in this case, nor is it very true any more in general.  At Sandy Hook Elementary School, the doors were locked after 9:30am, and all visitors were required to check in at the front entrance and would only be admitted after visual review over a video monitor.  It's likely that the shooter either (1) knew about this policy and deliberately entered the school before 9:30 in order to make the entrance a bit easier or (2) was let in after visual inspection because someone recognized him as someone who might have a valid reason to enter.  I know that my high school implemented a similar policy during my senior year of high school.  All the elementary schools I volunteered at during undergrad had similar policies, though they were much more lax about locking entrances.

EDIT: Ah, I stand corrected... it looks like the school had appropriate security measures that they attempted to follow, but the shooter still forced his way in regardless.

[t_host1]

 The rogue mind in which the gun rest denies life again, its horror imagined lived infinity by the survivors of Adam Lanza; his capital sin, revenge - the Obama Christmas Present’.  The Obama Christmas Future’ - the denial and abuse of the Founding Father’s fundamentals can only foster greater atrocities. Their foresight was not void of mass murder, it’s forming was of it. Our Christmas Pass’, Obamacare - the aggrandizement of life, liberty and loot is met with equal distain.

[Bleeding heart conservative, HTMLdon]

 The rogue mind in which the gun rest denies life again, its horror imagined lived infinity by the survivors of Adam Lanza; his capital sin, revenge - the Obama Christmas Present’.  The Obama Christmas Future’ - the denial and abuse of the Founding Father’s fundamentals can only foster greater atrocities. Their foresight was not void of mass murder, it’s forming was of it. Our Christmas Pass’, Obamacare - the aggrandizement of life, liberty and loot is met with equal distain.

WTF?

[Vosem]

What's the threshold in terms of deaths until something is really done on gun control?
100? 200?

As I have already noted, when my generation is elderly something could happen. Doubtful on the whole though -- the trend on this issue is both for less public support for gun control and for less gun control.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

It seems a lot of you guys think we need more gun control. How exactly will more gun control prevent these kinds of shootings or gun violence in general.

Guns are incredibly deadly weapons. Make it much harder for people to get these incredibly deadly weapons, and fewer people will be slaughtered with them. It's not that complicated.

Caveat: there is a negative relationship between firearm violence and knife violence, which is problematic.

It's much harder to commit a massacre with a blade rather than a firearm.

As a firm supporter of strict gun control, I agree but I think it's pretty important to point out that reducing access to guns likely wouldn't have a sizable effect on violence as a whole but rather violence due to firearms. Our country's tendency for violent crime is extreme in every category and I can't imagine that this would be any different for acts of violence caused by knifes, hatchets and swords if we made guns unobtainable. We need to fix the pathology of our country, not just prevent access to a deadly tool that makes that pathology all the more dangerous.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

You all are missing the point. Gun control would not have stopped this from happening. This is a psychological issue in which people who are deeply sick are going unnoticed or unchecked by their families. Or they know something is wrong and just didn't do anything about it. Even if we have strict controls in place he'd still get his gun and he'd still kill those kids.

This is a cultural thing in America. It isn't simply about our laws. Thinking its just a political problem is way too simplistic.

[Paul Kemp]

You all are missing the point. Gun control would not have stopped this from happening. This is a psychological issue in which people who are deeply sick are going unnoticed or unchecked by their families. Or they know something is wrong and just didn't do anything about it. Even if we have strict controls in place he'd still get his gun and he'd still kill those kids.

This is a cultural thing in America. It isn't simply about our laws. Thinking its just a political problem is way too simplistic.

I agree 100%.

There is a sickness to our society and the problem is that there's no sure fire antidote.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Now they're reporting his mother didn't even work at that school. It just gets sadder and sadder.

[Lief 🗽]

Gun control wouldn't have prevented the attack, but if the guy had been using a knife (or even a much less deadly gun) then many fewer children would be dead. Of course five people dying instead of twenty-seven or whatever we're up to is still a tragedy, but at least it's less of one.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Well I hope at the very least assault weapons are banned and these gun show loopholes are closed.

Outside of that, there isn't much we can do to stop these things. Our mental healthcare in this country sucks which goes along with our culture once again. And our culture is what leads to these tragedies more so than anywhere else in the world.

The crazies want to make a name for themselves and if killing innocent kindergardeners does it, they'll do it.

[Frodo]

Why is it most liberals seem to focus on gun control, and gloss over better mental health treatment, as the most effective solution to this problem?   They seem to hardly even mention it. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

and gloss over better mental health treatment

Do we even know if this latest spree killer was even within the system?

[Frodo]

and gloss over better mental health treatment

Do we even know if this latest spree killer was even within the system?

And that's part of the problem, isn't it?  Those who need treatment don't get it. 

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

He wasn't in the system. He was like all the rest: quiet, kept to himself, may have had autism, was awkward to be around, intelligent in school, never had many friends, parents knew he had a problem but did nothing about it. One day he snapped and went on a killing spree. It really has little to do with gun control since these killers are not criminals before they go on their spree. And as long as we have the 2nd amendment, they'll be able to get some type of gun, whether it be a rifle or a handgun.

One can argue that maybe instead of 27 dying it would've only been 6, but that's still 6 too many.

[Joe Republic]

So when is it acceptable to talk about the political implications? When is "too early" over?

After the funerals, I'd say.

No, we live in a 24/7 news media world now, and our attention spans won't last until then.  The funerals will be in a week or so from now, but by then America will have already moved on to the next media sensation, or very possibly the next shooting.

[Keystone Phil]

Why is it most liberals seem to focus on gun control, and gloss over better mental health treatment, as the most effective solution to this problem?   They seem to hardly even mention it. 

The real issue here. And it's not just liberals glossing over it.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

Why is it most liberals seem to focus on gun control, and gloss over better mental health treatment, as the most effective solution to this problem?   They seem to hardly even mention it. 

The real issue here. And it's not just liberals glossing over it.

Couldn't agree more.  Gun control is part of the equation, but a far bigger part is the inadequate treatment we give to people with mental health issues.  That's the bigger fish to fry.

[All Along The Watchtower]

He wasn't in the system. He was like all the rest: quiet, kept to himself, may have had autism, was awkward to be around, intelligent in school, never had many friends, parents knew he had a problem but did nothing about it. One day he snapped and went on a killing spree. It really has little to do with gun control since these killers are not criminals before they go on their spree. And as long as we have the 2nd amendment, they'll be able to get some type of gun, whether it be a rifle or a handgun.

One can argue that maybe instead of 27 dying it would've only been 6, but that's still 6 too many.

All of them are like that?