is Rick Santorum more or less objectionable because he is a Roman Catholic?

[they don't love you like i love you]

He's speaking to the Disciples there, and infant baptism is not found anywhere in the Bible.

[TJ in Oregon]

He's speaking to the Disciples there, and infant baptism is not found anywhere in the Bible.

He's still saying they didn't choose to follow him and pretty much everything about your whole view on this is about choosing what you want to follow.

[they don't love you like i love you]

The context is quite a bit different. Do you support the Bharatiya Janata Party in India's proposals to ban religious conversion?

[Frodo]

Coming from an irreligious background in which I was never compelled to join one faith or another, I will never quite relate to BRTD or Hockeydude's attitude to Catholicism. 

[they don't love you like i love you]

For example here's a letter a hardline Hindu leader wrote to the last Pope. If there was a real life Deluge, I think this would certainly qualify for entry:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Frodo]

For example here's a letter a hardline Hindu leader wrote to the last Pope. If there was a real life Deluge, I think this would certainly qualify for entry:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

He should write that same letter to the multitudes of Protestant sects (including the Mormon church) that are looking for new souls... 

[they don't love you like i love you]

Well it's 12 years old (last Pope remember, it was addressed to John Paul II) but I wouldn't mind, it'd give more people a good laugh. Remember that this guy and the BJP want people to be arrested and charged for things like baptizing former Hindus and Muslims who convert by choice.

[TJ in Oregon]

The context is quite a bit different. Do you support the Bharatiya Janata Party in India's proposals to ban religious conversion?

For starters they're wrong about the whole Jesus thing But the other obvious difference here they're advocating government action to prevent people from converting, a major departure from believing on a personal level that someone can convert.

One reason why the Church isn't going to throw out all their records is that we don't believe in rebaptism and if they've already been baptized and would some day rejoin (which happens sometimes) they couldn't be baptized again.

And BRTD why do you care so much whether they call themselves Catholic? I could call myself a tulip but it doesn't make it true. Who cares? It's not like Catholicism holds that all one must do to attain salvation is be baptized. There is something called sin.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I think it's fairly clear that BRTD has no respect for either the philosophical tradition, or the cultural history of Catholicism and the role it plays/has played for many cultures.

It's one thing to disagree with religious teachings, it's another to be willfully obtuse and disrespectful of history, tradition, and culture.

[they don't love you like i love you]

The context is quite a bit different. Do you support the Bharatiya Janata Party in India's proposals to ban religious conversion?

For starters they're wrong about the whole Jesus thing But the other obvious difference here they're advocating government action to prevent people from converting, a major departure from believing on a personal level that someone can convert.

One reason why the Church isn't going to throw out all their records is that we don't believe in rebaptism and if they've already been baptized and would some day rejoin (which happens sometimes) they couldn't be baptized again.

Well isn't that true of any church? The only time one will rebaptize someone is if they believe they weren't baptized right the last time. Mine would rebaptize me because it doesn't recognize infant baptisms but no church would baptize me yet again unless I converted to Mormonism or something.

That's not a problem. People acting the way these people Supersoulty thought would toward an ex-Catholic candidate or some of my dead relatives did is.

And BRTD why do you care so much whether they call themselves Catholic? I could call myself a tulip but it doesn't make it true. Who cares? It's not like Catholicism holds that all one must do to attain salvation is be baptized. There is something called sin.

Well yeah they can, they have the legal right to do so just as much as people have the right to not call themselves Catholic regardless of upbringing (like 1/3 of Americans raised Catholic do.) I just don't approve of it.

I think it's fairly clear that BRTD has no respect for either the philosophical tradition, or the cultural history of Catholicism and the role it plays/has played for many cultures.

It's one thing to disagree with religious teachings, it's another to be willfully obtuse and disrespectful of history, tradition, and culture.

That depends on what you mean. After all it's somewhat similar to the argument the Hindu hardliner who wrote that letter above was making. "Respecting culture" really can just lead to an infringement on freedom for someone that culture, such as in the example benconstine brought up once of his rabbi refusing to marry Jews and non-Jews. But I don't think it's necessarily impossible to both respect a culture and also respect the freedom of someone to reject that culture.

[Badger]

I'm 94% sure the sole purpose of this thread is to bait Phil.

I'll say only 49.9% as there's actually worthwhile commentary here and I don't want to lock the thread.

And kudos to phil for not taking the bait.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Let me give you an example PR. Let's imagine someone who is raised Catholic but as they get older remain a Christian but come to the following opinions:

-Women should be allowed to preach and take leadership roles.
-Baptism should not be done on infants but only on those who understand the meaning.
-There is no transubstantiation in communion, it is only symbolic.
-Homosexuality should not be condemned.
-Someone does not need to confess their sins to a priest to be forgiven.
-Sola fide and sola gratia.

Should that person remain a Catholic just because of "OMG CULTURE!"?

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

Coming from an irreligious background in which I was never compelled to join one faith or another, I will never quite relate to BRTD or Hockeydude's attitude to Catholicism. 

Whaaaaa?  Did you even read what I said?  I said that I grew up surrounded by Catholics who never espoused Santorum's extreme positions when it comes to social issues, specifically the anti-gay remarks that he has made.  From this I get the sense that Catholics in general have more moderate positions.  So the fact that Santorum is so extreme gives me the impression that his bigoted stances and statements come not from his religion but from something else.  Therefore, the fact that he is Catholic makes him a more objectionable figure in my eyes.

[patrick1]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

No, no, no. He hates Catholics because one set of his grandparents were upset that his mom got married outside the church or something. Everything else is just a series of bizarre anecdotes that hinge off of that.  Mind you this is from a supposed sola scriptura believer who self admittedly hasn't read the bible, but will troll Catholic encyclicals to cherry pick points of arguments for an online forum.

[Keystone Phil]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

Welcome to Arguing with BRTD: Where his logic almost never makes sense, you get bombarded with ridiculous personal accounts from his strange life and you leave the argument accomplishing nothing at all.

[patrick1]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

Welcome to Arguing with BRTD: Where his logic almost never makes sense, you get bombarded with ridiculous personal accounts from his strange life and you leave the argument accomplishing nothing at all.

It is actually worse than talking to BushOk.  Jeff will at least acknowledge what you say and do something exactly the opposite. Zach just completely ignores everything and will take one sentence out of context and then continue having a conversation with himself.  Witness Oakvales post about BRTD using anecdotes and BRTD responds to that post with something about Supersoulty and Tim Pawlenty.  If I didnt know better that would be pretty funny trolling.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

What the hell am I reading here?

[they don't love you like i love you]

I'm having a tough time following this argument. What I'm seeming to gather from it is that BRTD hates Catholics because many years earlier, he was told that Catholics might complain about Tim Pawlenty because of his conversion away from the Church? This gets stranger and stranger as we wander into t he deeper caverns of his mind.

No, no, no. He hates Catholics because one set of his grandparents were upset that his mom got married outside the church or something. Everything else is just a series of bizarre anecdotes that hinge off of that.  Mind you this is from a supposed sola scriptura believer who self admittedly hasn't read the bible, but will troll Catholic encyclicals to cherry pick points of arguments for an online forum.

Nah, I'm talking more about great-aunts and uncles, none of whom are still alive. Somewhat ironically the grandparent who would disapprove the most is my lifelong Lutheran paternal grandmother, who doesn't care what church her son would get married in and despite what Torie said has never had any problem with Catholics, but doesn't like Catholic apostasy. Or Buddhist apostasy or Islamic apostasy either for some reason. I won't even try to get olds.

I have read all of the Gospels.

[Brittain33]

Should that person remain a Catholic just because of "OMG CULTURE!"?

It hardly matters "should." The fact is that so many do, even though you wouldn't see the same experience with most Protestant denominations.

It surely matters that the Catholic church has 2,000 years of continuity, and within many people's lifetimes, took steps to adapt to some aspects of modern life. It also means there is zero tradition of accepted schism where you go off and do your own thing, while that right is central to the Protestant tradition.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Here's something that I think might result in some extreme Values Dissonance: in my whole subculture and scene, things like your native culture and traditions are not supposed to matter. Because one you get involved with the subculture, THAT becomes your culture. Where you came from is washed away. Even if you were born into some specialized ethnic community, that is not what you "belong" to anymore. Race, ethnicity and background no longer matter. You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way. And it helps that it's neutral and not tied to any type of region or culture and also doesn't carry any racial or class connotations, etc. You know my dislike of cliques and fraternities? It's pretty much based on the same type of thinking. Now that's not to say all sorts of categories within that culture develop (as this makes clear), but it does mean that one doesn't attach themselves to an ethnic identity anymore, and that makes any type of purely nominal denominational affiliation meaningless. It's part of a greater stream of acceptability and equality, similar to Galatians 3:28, just change "Christ Jesus" to "punk/hardcore/indie/emo".

What this does mean is that if someone is a Christian (and mind you, atheism/agnosticism is closer to the norm), they'll probably identify as just "Christian" (or something like "Christ follower") and if they have a church it'll be something neutral in terms of race and ethnic connotations. So essentially that means no Catholics, at least for that reason mentioned above. And to actually be a Catholic, this means basically accepting things like patriarchism and this:

It also means there is zero tradition of accepted schism where you go off and do your own thing, while that right is central to the Protestant tradition.

which run COMPLETELY afoul to the acceptable cultural mores. The result? If you're involved you won't be Catholic, and if you're really in deep in the scene it's not likely you'll know someone in it whose Catholic, and thus will not be familiar with someone clinging to denominational affiliation based on culture and tradition alone. Such a premise becomes very alien and difficult to comprehend because the fact is, you just don't think that way. And people who are Christian are going to want a similar style and attitude, race, gender and ethnicity are meaningless, Christ is open to EVERYONE, and that means no type of "ethnic" practices. There are some other factors involved, including the basic fact that your typical Catholic church is going to be full of mostly just olds on any given Sunday, but that's the jist of the whole thing.

Now before someone points out that this is rather hypocritical for something that appeals pretty much only to middle to upper class white people, well yes, that's true. But it should at least give some insight into the mindset involved. So when PR is saying I have no respect for history, tradition and culture, well perhaps, but one must realize that's because I'm from somewhere where the rule is to NOT do that.

[patrick1]

Here's something that I think might result in some extreme Values Dissonance: in my whole subculture and scene, things like your native culture and traditions are not supposed to matter. Because one you get involved with the subculture, THAT becomes your culture. Where you came from is washed away. Even if you were born into some specialized ethnic community, that is not what you "belong" to anymore. Race, ethnicity and background no longer matter. You know my whole neutral hoodie/band shirt/jeans outfit? People wear that EVERYWHERE. You can go to a show in Europe or even South Africa and people will be dressed the exact same way. And it helps that it's neutral and not tied to any type of region or culture and also doesn't carry any racial or class connotations, etc. You know my dislike of cliques and fraternities? It's pretty much based on the same type of thinking. Now that's not to say all sorts of categories within that culture develop (as this makes clear), but it does mean that one doesn't attach themselves to an ethnic identity anymore, and that makes any type of purely nominal denominational affiliation meaningless. It's part of a greater stream of acceptability and equality, similar to Galatians 3:28, just change "Christ Jesus" to "punk/hardcore/indie/emo".

What this does mean is that if someone is a Christian (and mind you, atheism/agnosticism is closer to the norm), they'll probably identify as just "Christian" (or something like "Christ follower") and if they have a church it'll be something neutral in terms of race and ethnic connotations. So essentially that means no Catholics, at least for that reason mentioned above. And to actually be a Catholic, this means basically accepting things like patriarchism and this:

It also means there is zero tradition of accepted schism where you go off and do your own thing, while that right is central to the Protestant tradition.

which run COMPLETELY afoul to the acceptable cultural mores. The result? If you're involved you won't be Catholic, and if you're really in deep in the scene it's not likely you'll know someone in it whose Catholic, and thus will not be familiar with someone clinging to denominational affiliation based on culture and tradition alone. Such a premise becomes very alien and difficult to comprehend because the fact is, you just don't think that way. And people who are Christian are going to want a similar style and attitude, race, gender and ethnicity are meaningless, Christ is open to EVERYONE, and that means no type of "ethnic" practices. There are some other factors involved, including the basic fact that your typical Catholic church is going to be full of mostly just olds on any given Sunday, but that's the jist of the whole thing.

Now before someone points out that this is rather hypocritical for something that appeals pretty much only to middle to upper class white people, well yes, that's true. But it should at least give some insight into the mindset involved. So when PR is saying I have no respect for history, tradition and culture, well perhaps, but one must realize that's because I'm from somewhere where the rule is to NOT do that.

Hahahaha, are you quite sure you want to use this as an argument against the Catholic Church? 

[they don't love you like i love you]

It's not an argument for or against anything, just an explanation for why things are the way they are. Though this is kind of clear for other reasons, I think even without that you could understand why Catholicism does not appeal to people who are likely to go to Dude Fest (I did notice a Christian lower back tattoo on a girl there one year though, some Bible quotation.)

[Sbane]

For example here's a letter a hardline Hindu leader wrote to the last Pope. If there was a real life Deluge, I think this would certainly qualify for entry:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I actually don't see anything wrong with it. Conversion is weird, whether it's done by Muslims, Catholics or Protestants (including those lovely mormons).

Making conversion illegal by government action is a whole another issue though. I certainly disagree with that. But a person telling the pope to stop trying to convert people because it is an aggressive action which does actually destroy cultures is not ridiculous, it's the truth. People shouldn't actively go around trying to convert people, that is certainly an aggressive action. Why the hell do you think you know better than me about what is true about a higher power (or lack thereof)? Someone converting on their own is a different matter though. If someone wants to reject their culture, they should be allowed to do so. Again, it just strikes me as very weird to reject one irrational belief structure to join another one. Very weird.

[patrick1]

You were saying you could go to a show anywhere. Well I think people can go to a Mass anywhere on the globe and worship side by side with every age, gender and classes under the same roof. Catholic literally means universal. So your jeans and hoodie EVERYWHERE really isnt saying much

You and your niche sub-culture does not place a high value on tradition. Which is fine. However, ironically there does seem to be a high level of conformity. Which is rather sad.