Vatican City 2013 papal election

[Platypus]

It'dll be a massive surprise if the new Pope is from the US, it'll be a huge shock if it's Dolan.

It seems like the next Pope needs to tick five boxes:

1. Conservative, but not reactionary. They ought to be able to see the grey, but advocate the white and confront the black, so to speak. Someone with deep beliefs in line with the conservative wing of the church, but not unthinkingly. Ideally, not taintyed by scandal based on not communicating these views well, but certainly someone who has conservative views and is prepared to express them, and does so in a way that is both clear and not offensively harsh.

I think Francis gets a yes to this.

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But obviously a no to this. Healthy enough, but rather older than I thought possible.

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How good is his english? but generally a yes for this.

[qupte]
4. Both pastoral and administrative experience. They don't need to be a great showman at all, but they do need to have the experience of talking to the pews, and the ideally the lives of the general clergy. The administrative strength is ideally linked with the curia, but strong governance of a large Archbishopric is probably sufficient. One or the other isn't likely to cut it unless the other factors are all met, and met well. There's no real need for a deep theologian, as long as they understand the theologians around them.l
[/quote]

Meets this well.

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A yes here as well.

[DC Al Fine]

I'll never understand why supporting a Latin Mass has remained a caused associated with reactionaries. It's like every in the US where every politician who supports lower taxes opposes abortion rights. These issues have nothing to do with each other.

I'm a hardcore leftist in most regards and I'd love to bring the Latin Mass back.

I think it goes with general attitude. I've found that most of the people who want the church to accept divorce, abortion etc. use the "making the church more accessible" argument. That sort of mindset doesn't really lend itself to switching back to a mass in a language that most won't understand.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

A lot of the time people take positions that go with the territory.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It'dll be a massive surprise if the new Pope is from the US, it'll be a huge shock if it's Dolan.

It seems like the next Pope needs to tick five boxes:

1. Conservative, but not reactionary. They ought to be able to see the grey, but advocate the white and confront the black, so to speak. Someone with deep beliefs in line with the conservative wing of the church, but not unthinkingly. Ideally, not taintyed by scandal based on not communicating these views well, but certainly someone who has conservative views and is prepared to express them, and does so in a way that is both clear and not offensively harsh.

I think Francis gets a yes to this.

He is slightly 'tainted by scandal based on not communicating these views well' (at the time of the Equal Marriage Act in 2010), but he and the Argentinian Church seem to have learned from how poorly that went.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It'dll be a massive surprise if the new Pope is from the US, it'll be a huge shock if it's Dolan.

It seems like the next Pope needs to tick five boxes:

1. Conservative, but not reactionary. They ought to be able to see the grey, but advocate the white and confront the black, so to speak. Someone with deep beliefs in line with the conservative wing of the church, but not unthinkingly. Ideally, not taintyed by scandal based on not communicating these views well, but certainly someone who has conservative views and is prepared to express them, and does so in a way that is both clear and not offensively harsh.

I think Francis gets a yes to this.

He is slightly 'tainted by scandal based on not communicating these views well' (at the time of the Equal Marriage Act in 2010), but he and the Argentinian Church seem to have learned from how poorly that went.

I feel like a Catholic cleric in South America could have said much worse things than "gay marriage is the devil's work". At least he did not say anything directly offensive toward homosexuals.

[Platypus]

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's scandalous. Disappointing, sure, but not enough to make the average Catholic's faith in the man or the church to be irreparably affected.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

It'dll be a massive surprise if the new Pope is from the US, it'll be a huge shock if it's Dolan.

It seems like the next Pope needs to tick five boxes:

1. Conservative, but not reactionary. They ought to be able to see the grey, but advocate the white and confront the black, so to speak. Someone with deep beliefs in line with the conservative wing of the church, but not unthinkingly. Ideally, not taintyed by scandal based on not communicating these views well, but certainly someone who has conservative views and is prepared to express them, and does so in a way that is both clear and not offensively harsh.

I think Francis gets a yes to this.

He is slightly 'tainted by scandal based on not communicating these views well' (at the time of the Equal Marriage Act in 2010), but he and the Argentinian Church seem to have learned from how poorly that went.

I feel like a Catholic cleric in South America could have said much worse things than "gay marriage is the devil's work". At least he did not say anything directly offensive toward homosexuals.

Yeah, I wouldn't say it's scandalous. Disappointing, sure, but not enough to make the average Catholic's faith in the man or the church to be irreparably affected.

True.

His predecessor as Archbishop of Buenos Aires did, in fact, say far, far worse things, among others.

[afleitch]

Not good;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294580/Special-report-The-damning-documents-new-Pope-DID-betray-tortured-priests-junta.html

[Хahar 🤔]

BTW, did I ever tell you guys that USF is a Jesuit school? Some people here must be celebrating these days.

Jesuits, in the gay, liberal, atheist SF?
Impossible.

Most Catholic schools in the area are Jesuit-run.

[Franknburger]

Not good;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294580/Special-report-The-damning-documents-new-Pope-DID-betray-tortured-priests-junta.html

Definitely not! Though, also not as bad as it could have been (he has remained below the radar of Amnesty International and Argentinian investigators). People can admit and learn from their mistakes  - let's see if he does ..

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Not good;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2294580/Special-report-The-damning-documents-new-Pope-DID-betray-tortured-priests-junta.html

Definitely not! Though, also not as bad as it could have been (he has remained below the radar of Amnesty International and Argentinian investigators). People can admit and learn from their mistakes  - let's see if he does ..

Most of his papacy and life so far seem to fall between 'actually pretty good' and 'not as bad as it could have been', frankly. This, seemingly, being far towards the latter end of the spectrum.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Yeah, this is really unsettling. I can understand being too quiet and not helping these priests as much as he should have - it is normal human weakness under dictatorships of this kind - but if he actively worked with the junta and spread rumors behind their backs, there is not justification to this. He might be genuinely repentant for that, and do many good things to redeem himself, but my opinion of him has dropped considerably.

I really hope new evidence will refute these allegations. But it seems unlikely at this point.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

I'd heard the latter accusations before, too, but actual corroboration of this kind is, obviously, unpleasant to say the least. In any case it's appearing increasingly likely that 1970s-vintage Bergoglio, at least, was what my aunt would call a 'real piece of work', whatever this may mean for Francis now (and I hope for the sake of the Church and the world that the answer to that is 'not much').

[Antonio the Sixth]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

I'd heard the latter accusations before, too, but actual corroboration of this kind is, obviously, unpleasant to say the least. In any case it's appearing increasingly likely that 1970s-vintage Bergoglio, at least, was what my aunt would call a 'real piece of work', whatever this may mean for Francis now (and I hope for the sake of the Church and the world that the answer to that is 'not much').

Indeed. If these allegations are true, judgment on his person can only be irremediably tarnished. But hopefully this might not necessarily prevent him from being a good Pope. Still a very sad thing.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

It's backed by a pretty authoritative Argentine journalist though.

Isn't it the same one who wrote the book originally containing these allegations in 2005? The things is, this is obviously bad, but I'm not entirely sure it's new information.

What I had heard before this point were accusations that he had done nothing to prevent these priests' capture or help their liberation. The article now says that he actually spread rumors behind their backs and that he himself alerted the authorities that they were "dangerous" elements.

I'd heard the latter accusations before, too, but actual corroboration of this kind is, obviously, unpleasant to say the least. In any case it's appearing increasingly likely that 1970s-vintage Bergoglio, at least, was what my aunt would call a 'real piece of work', whatever this may mean for Francis now (and I hope for the sake of the Church and the world that the answer to that is 'not much').

Indeed. If these allegations are true, judgment on his person can only be irremediably tarnished. But hopefully this might not necessarily prevent him from being a good Pope. Still a very sad thing.

Whatever else may be, I'm sure there will be plenty of back-and-forth on this to come. At least I hope there will be. This isn't the sort of thing that should be ignored, and is frankly a much more legitimate basis on which to criticize him (him specifically, rather than the Church as an institution) than having the same opinion of gay marriage as all or almost all other cardinals.

If there's anything to be said in his defense or favor on this subject that hasn't been said already, I certainly hope it's said soon.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Definitely. It would be terrible, for all actors involved, to leave the issue to doubts and speculations throughout his papacy. It would be mildly comforting to see him, if the accusations are true, finally confess and and ask for forgiveness. That would be a powerful sign, and send a clear message to the Church as a whole with regard to several other issues (from pedophilia to the bank's management). If we see a pope unable to admit his past guilts, he will have little credibility to spur the rest of the Church to do so.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'm not convinced at all by this.  Supposed photocopies of three decade old documents implicating Francis?  At least whoever has provided these documents appears to have learned the 1^st rule of forging old typewritten documents: use an actual typewriter.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm not convinced at all by this.  Supposed photocopies of three decade old documents implicating Francis?  At least whoever has provided these documents appears to have learned the 1^st rule of forging old typewritten documents: use an actual typewriter.

I hope you're right.

[minionofmidas]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

There are NO stronger proofs known to mankind that a story is false.

[SPQR]

If the Daily Heil prints a story citing "a report it saw", I'm calling bullsh**t.

[Iannis]

Reading the daily mail article it seems that it indicates documents written by one of the jesuits who had "the impression" that Bergoglio had betrayed him, even though Bergoglio denied, and even though he was the one who made him be liberated, very probably. Very very weak accusation, especially because thounsands of leftist activists were arrested in that period and tehre was no need of Bergoglio intervention fo their arrest. Unfortunately in the same period they had been expelled by jesuits for doctrinal reason, this is the real reason  of these speculations.
Also the second document of 1979, so 3 years later, shows only that Bergoglio doesn't advice in favour of the ahndling of a passport to them and nothing else.
I realy see all this as grasping at straws