Is monogamy becoming an underrated value in our society?

[fezzyfestoon]

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex with women, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. SexHeterosexuality isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for straight sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Again, let's turn this around. Striking how close it comes to things I'm sure many of the LGBT people on this forum have heard from homophobic relatives at some point.

Jesus, are you even reading my post?! It's all about not judging other people's sexuality or shaming them for it. What a dick...

[Kitteh]

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex with women, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. SexHeterosexuality isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for straight sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Again, let's turn this around. Striking how close it comes to things I'm sure many of the LGBT people on this forum have heard from homophobic relatives at some point.

Jesus, are you even reading my post?! It's all about not judging other people's sexuality or shaming them for it. What a dick...

I was reading your post, in fact I was quoting it word-for-word.

[fezzyfestoon]

So then you're just an asshole who'd rather be a child than have a decent conversation? The very attitude you and others are espousing is the same as misogyny and homophobia. You're shaming people's sexuality, looking down on those who choose something different than you, and lashing out at those defending it.

[Kitteh]

So then you're just an asshole who'd rather be rude than have a decent conversation?

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

[Torie]

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well.  

Where in my post is there any indication of generalization? It's very specifically and carefully based on an individual basis. Not to mention that your post supports my point that sexuality is natural by bringing up sexual orientation being known early. Thanks for portraying me as a bigot anyway though.

I was not sure entirely of my sexuality until I was age 59.    So you put sex aside, and still make life go on. Otherwise, why bother living at all? And the AIDS thing put everything on hold anyway, until it became something other than a death sentence, meted out in a cruel and unusual way. We all have our crosses to bear, no matter what our station in life. You all will learn that in time, to the extent you don't already know - up close and personal. Life is a challenge, just like playing football.

The oddest thing of all, is that I think I am rather a normal guy at bottom. Go figure! 

[fezzyfestoon]

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well. 

Where in my post is there any indication of generalization? It's very specifically and carefully based on an individual basis. Not to mention that your post supports my point that sexuality is natural by bringing up sexual orientation being known early. Thanks for portraying me as a bigot anyway though.

I was not sure entirely of my sexuality until I was age 59.    So you put sex aside, and still make life go on. Otherwise, why bother living at all? And the AIDS thing put everything on hold anyway, until it became something other than a death sentence, meted out in a cruel and unusual way. We all have our crosses to bear, no matter what our station in life. You all will learn that in time, to the extent you don't already know - up close and personal. Life is a challenge, just like playing football.

The oddest thing of all, is that I think I am rather a normal guy at bottom. Go figure! 

Yeah, exactly. I just meant that people can know early and that's because sexual feelings happen to all of us naturally. My whole point is that you never know, especially about other people, so it's silly to make proclamations about it and judge others for it.

[fezzyfestoon]

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

Stop trying to create an issue where there isn't one. I don't appreciate being mischaracterized.

[Napoleon]

Sex when you're in love is the best thing. I couldn't imagine anyone not liking it or holding their same asexual views once they experience such a thing.

Well I doubt Nathan would express love through sex and knowing opebo, the only way for him to express love through sex is to masturbate. But generally I agree.

[Kitteh]

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

Stop trying to create an issue where there isn't one. I don't appreciate being mischaracterized.

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

[patrick1]

I actually like these threads. The battle lines get drawn and the two opposing teams just go at it. Each side has its cheerleaders and even that guy at the Superbowl party who just drops by to tell you that sports are stupid and you are stupid for liking them. Once in a while you have a commentator try to give the whole thing context.

To drop my contrived sports fan metaphor,  I don't see what is bad about these threads beside the name calling. And I admit I kinda like that on a forum , it adds flavor whereas it would be distasteful in live action.

Opebo and Nathan both have interesting ideas about life and a unique way of expressing them. I can't say I can really identify that much with either, particularly Nathan.  However, I do enjoy people putting forth their thoughts about life down. Most don't give it; the life they choose to live,  any thought at all.

[fezzyfestoon]

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

Like I said many, many, many times very clearly, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as asexual. I made an observation based on my experiences with people on this forum and assigned no judgment to anyone's sexuality in any way, which is exactly what it is I posted in here to oppose by explicitly saying that sexuality is not something that should be shamed or looked down on. And Torie's experience only lends to my original point that it's silly to make a life decision about something and commit so deeply to it at such an early age. You never know and it's obnoxious to go making declarations about your sexuality or anyone else's. My own views on asexuality haven't even come into the conversation because it's none of my damn business. You seem to want to pick a fight with someone who isn't here, and you've zeroed in on my posts as the ones you're going to turn into the disparaging ones you wanted to fight. I take offense to that and I won't be characterized as some sort of sexual hardliner forcing my views on others. Because like I said, my views haven't even come up and they won't.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

This thread makes me embarrassed for everyone posting in it. Scott should mercy lock it. Also, how old is Nathan?

I take exception to the implication that it matters.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well. 

BTW - I think this should be nominated for worst threat in the history of Atlas...

It's not even close. The Sandra Fluke thread was definitely worse than this one, especially before BK sanitized it. I'm sure there were some terrible threads here before I joined, too.

Oh and most people who claim to be asexual, are actually just scared of sex... not targeting anyone in particular. But this is my experience.

To be fair, you did say it was just your experience, so I'm not attacking you or anything, but just saying that's not a really reliable basis.

a) I said nominated, not win...

b) I made an observation... that's all.

[Kitteh]

Like I said many, many, many times very clearly, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as asexual. I made an observation based on my experiences with people on this forum and assigned no judgment to anyone's sexuality in any way, which is exactly what it is I posted in here to oppose by explicitly saying that sexuality is not something that should be shamed or looked down on. And Torie's experience only lends to my original point that it's silly to make a life decision about something and commit so deeply to it at such an early age. You never know and it's obnoxious to go making declarations about your sexuality or anyone else's. My own views on asexuality haven't even come into the conversation because it's none of my damn business. You seem to want to pick a fight with someone who isn't here, and you've zeroed in on my posts as the ones you're going to turn into the disparaging ones you wanted to fight. I take offense to that and I won't be characterized as some sort of sexual hardliner forcing my views on others. Because like I said, my views haven't even come up and they won't.

Please read what I said again.

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making? If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

I do not believe that you are bigoted or hate asexuality in any way, and I have never said so in this thread or anywhere else.

[fezzyfestoon]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

[Kitteh]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

I was demonstrating the similarity of your arguments to arguments used against young people identifying as gay. I apologize if they came off as a personal comparison. In a good debate, you should be attacking the other person's arguments without attacking the other person, which is what I was trying to do there. I'm sorry if it came off as a personal attack, I sincerely did not mean them that way.

[fezzyfestoon]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

I was demonstrating the similarity of your arguments to arguments used against young people identifying as gay. I apologize if they came off as a personal comparison. In a good debate, you should be attacking the other person's arguments without attacking the other person, which is what I was trying to do there. I'm sorry if it came off as a personal attack, I sincerely did not mean them that way.

That's fine, it just really struck a cord and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I can definitely see your point also, I was also just past that point in the conversation so I took it as an accusation. No hard feelings.

[Beet]

I'm not a fearful kid and I'm not an experienced adult. I'm a senior in college and have had ample time to decide whether or not I want to participate in certain aspects of the culture around me. My disapproval of promiscuity and the commodification of sex are certainly in some sense related to my personal distaste for the subject matter, but I assure you that I have considerably more stringent standards for my own decorum than those that I'm foisting, or attempting to foist, on opebo.

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. Sex isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. Shaming people for performing a pleasurable act they naturally enjoy is childish. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Your post is what smacks of judgment and ignorance. The statement "sex...it's a basic human instinct". So since I don't have an instinct towards sex, does that mean I'm not human? Or are you saying you know me better than I know myself? How is that not incredibly judging and presumptuous? "As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for sex". Again. You said you assign no judgment to anyone's sexuality, but you feel free to judge asexuality. Yes, I know for a fact that I have no sexual desire (not the same thing as a distaste for sex, but it's possible to know that you have a distaste for something without trying it. For instance, how do you feel about being defecated on? in the face?). "When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making," who here feels superior, exactly? "My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever." If I really like a girl, it'll be someone who has no problems accepting me for who I am, not someone like you who assumes that I'd be a completely different person if I had a crush. It's not about a lapse in judgment... asexuality has nothing to do with one's judgment or one's moral values.

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Um, but you do seem to have expressed some views. That's was eliciting a response. The things that you've said, here. See the specific quotes above. If they've been misinterpreted then I'll be very relieved.

[Beet]

Stop trying to create an issue where there isn't one. I don't appreciate being mischaracterized.

Your not being mischaracterized. You're erasing and shaming people who don't enjoy sex without even seeming to realize it, even after being called out for it repeatedly.

[Beet]

Sex when you're in lovewith a woman is the best thing. I couldn't imagine anyone not liking it or holding their same ahomosexual views once they experience such a thing.

Exactly. When did things cease to exist just because you can't imagine them, personally?

[Beet]

This thread makes me embarrassed for everyone posting in it. Scott should mercy lock it. Also, how old is Nathan?

That's funny; it went downhill after you started posting in it.

[fezzyfestoon]

It's based on biology, dude. You may not be attracted to other people, but sexual arousal happens in one way or another whether you like it or not. I don't care who wants to be asexual or for what reason, but it's a choice not a sexual orientation regardless of whether you're attracted to other people or not. Comparing it to heterosexuality and homosexuality is ridiculous and attacking people for acknowledging biology is obnoxious.

[Beet]

It's based on biology, dude. You may not be attracted to other people, but sexual arousal happens in one way or another whether you like it or not. I don't care who wants to be asexual or for what reason, but it's a choice not a sexual orientation regardless of whether you're attracted to other people or not. Comparing it to heterosexuality and homosexuality is ridiculous and attacking people for acknowledging biology is obnoxious.

Uh, not all people have experienced sexual arousal, and you can't say for certain that they ever will, but even if all people everywhere must experience it, it has nothing to do with asexuality. Arousal is not the same as sexual desire.

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If you're not attracted to other people, how is that a choice?

[Kitteh]

Again, it is amazing to me how word-for-word similar this sounds to things that are said about being gay. "It's a choice not a sexual orientation", etc.

[fezzyfestoon]

Exactly, thank you. Asexuality is the absence of sexual attraction, not an orientation of sexuality. But you're right, choice isn't the right word for true asexualism, I misspoke. But like I said at the beginning and others have said, considering the extreme rarity of it and its past on the forum, biology is highly unlikely to be playing a role in this. Behavior, social fears, etc are what I believe to be the causes. The faux outrage is also very much a factor in that belief. So get off my nuts if you hate them so much.

[Beet]

But like I said at the beginning and others have said, considering the extreme rarity of it and its past on the forum, biology is highly unlikely to be playing a role in this. Behavior, social fears, etc are what I believe to be the causes. The faux outrage is also very much a factor in that belief.

Social fears are far too widespread to explain asexuality, as pretty much the vast majority of people get them at one point or another. If that was a sufficient cause, then a lot more than 1% of the population would identify as asexual.

Speaking for myself, although I have always been asexual, I did not consciously identify as such until recently because I did not know this concept existed and what exactly it meant. I knew I was different, but I never had a word to describe it, so I never brought it up and tried to blend in when I could. Does that make sense?