Is monogamy becoming an underrated value in our society?

[fezzyfestoon]

I'm very intrigued by relationship based societal conversations. It's obviously hard to categorize complex, diverse personal experiences, but I do think monogamy is overall losing its standing and undeservedly so. I also think there are a lot of factors at play and a lot of positives and negatives at play. Things like selfishness, self-righteousness, self-absorption, laziness, and shallowness rapidly gaining ground leads to a fickle, individualistic society that values others' needs far, far less. I think that also leads to people being more reluctant to commit to anyone who doesn't share their exact priorities, which is impossible. At the same time, the positives of being more honest about those things being in play make for fewer cases of forced monogamy for the sake of monogamy...and that just makes for an unhealthy relationship. I don't really know, there's a lot to think about and a lot that no one can be sure about, so who really knows?

[fezzyfestoon]

This thread makes me embarrassed for everyone posting in it. Scott should mercy lock it. Also, how old is Nathan?

[fezzyfestoon]

This thread makes me embarrassed for everyone posting in it. Scott should mercy lock it. Also, how old is Nathan?

I take exception to the implication that it matters.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

[fezzyfestoon]

I'm not a fearful kid and I'm not an experienced adult. I'm a senior in college and have had ample time to decide whether or not I want to participate in certain aspects of the culture around me. My disapproval of promiscuity and the commodification of sex are certainly in some sense related to my personal distaste for the subject matter, but I assure you that I have considerably more stringent standards for my own decorum than those that I'm foisting, or attempting to foist, on opebo.

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. Sex isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. Shaming people for performing a pleasurable act they naturally enjoy is childish. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

[fezzyfestoon]

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well. 

Where in my post is there any indication of generalization? It's very specifically and carefully based on an individual basis. Not to mention that your post supports my point that sexuality is natural by bringing up sexual orientation being known early. Thanks for portraying me as a bigot anyway though.

[fezzyfestoon]

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex with women, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. SexHeterosexuality isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for straight sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Again, let's turn this around. Striking how close it comes to things I'm sure many of the LGBT people on this forum have heard from homophobic relatives at some point.

Jesus, are you even reading my post?! It's all about not judging other people's sexuality or shaming them for it. What a dick...

[fezzyfestoon]

So then you're just an asshole who'd rather be a child than have a decent conversation? The very attitude you and others are espousing is the same as misogyny and homophobia. You're shaming people's sexuality, looking down on those who choose something different than you, and lashing out at those defending it.

[fezzyfestoon]

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well. 

Where in my post is there any indication of generalization? It's very specifically and carefully based on an individual basis. Not to mention that your post supports my point that sexuality is natural by bringing up sexual orientation being known early. Thanks for portraying me as a bigot anyway though.

I was not sure entirely of my sexuality until I was age 59.    So you put sex aside, and still make life go on. Otherwise, why bother living at all? And the AIDS thing put everything on hold anyway, until it became something other than a death sentence, meted out in a cruel and unusual way. We all have our crosses to bear, no matter what our station in life. You all will learn that in time, to the extent you don't already know - up close and personal. Life is a challenge, just like playing football.

The oddest thing of all, is that I think I am rather a normal guy at bottom. Go figure! 

Yeah, exactly. I just meant that people can know early and that's because sexual feelings happen to all of us naturally. My whole point is that you never know, especially about other people, so it's silly to make proclamations about it and judge others for it.

[fezzyfestoon]

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

Stop trying to create an issue where there isn't one. I don't appreciate being mischaracterized.

[fezzyfestoon]

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

Like I said many, many, many times very clearly, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as asexual. I made an observation based on my experiences with people on this forum and assigned no judgment to anyone's sexuality in any way, which is exactly what it is I posted in here to oppose by explicitly saying that sexuality is not something that should be shamed or looked down on. And Torie's experience only lends to my original point that it's silly to make a life decision about something and commit so deeply to it at such an early age. You never know and it's obnoxious to go making declarations about your sexuality or anyone else's. My own views on asexuality haven't even come into the conversation because it's none of my damn business. You seem to want to pick a fight with someone who isn't here, and you've zeroed in on my posts as the ones you're going to turn into the disparaging ones you wanted to fight. I take offense to that and I won't be characterized as some sort of sexual hardliner forcing my views on others. Because like I said, my views haven't even come up and they won't.

[fezzyfestoon]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

[fezzyfestoon]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

I was demonstrating the similarity of your arguments to arguments used against young people identifying as gay. I apologize if they came off as a personal comparison. In a good debate, you should be attacking the other person's arguments without attacking the other person, which is what I was trying to do there. I'm sorry if it came off as a personal attack, I sincerely did not mean them that way.

That's fine, it just really struck a cord and I couldn't believe what I was reading. I can definitely see your point also, I was also just past that point in the conversation so I took it as an accusation. No hard feelings.

[fezzyfestoon]

It's based on biology, dude. You may not be attracted to other people, but sexual arousal happens in one way or another whether you like it or not. I don't care who wants to be asexual or for what reason, but it's a choice not a sexual orientation regardless of whether you're attracted to other people or not. Comparing it to heterosexuality and homosexuality is ridiculous and attacking people for acknowledging biology is obnoxious.

[fezzyfestoon]

Exactly, thank you. Asexuality is the absence of sexual attraction, not an orientation of sexuality. But you're right, choice isn't the right word for true asexualism, I misspoke. But like I said at the beginning and others have said, considering the extreme rarity of it and its past on the forum, biology is highly unlikely to be playing a role in this. Behavior, social fears, etc are what I believe to be the causes. The faux outrage is also very much a factor in that belief. So get off my nuts if you hate them so much.

[fezzyfestoon]

I don't think social fears make everyone afraid of sex, just some people. There are a lot of social fears after all. And I don't see what the obsession is with labeling yourself and confining yourself to anything as complex and fluctuating as sexuality. Which ties into the initial, apparently wildly offensive, notion I initially suggested that maybe instead of definitively proclaiming something about yourself that has in my experience been something that more often than not fades, one should just roll with it as casually as all of us take our own sexuality. Nor is it much of a perch to heap judgment on others from. Instead of taking that for what it's worth I get treated like I'm the one that lurched into an all-out assault on sexuality rather than the one who came in specifically to say that was shameful. Thanks, that's really pleasant and mature of all of you. Dicks

[fezzyfestoon]

I don't think social fears make everyone afraid of sex, just some people.

Again, asexuality is not 'fear of sex'. We are not discussing that. If some teenagers you know have sworn off sex, that's a choice of theirs and has nothing to do with asexuality unless they've explicitly stated that they are asexual.

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What's the point of labelling yourself sexual, heterosexual or homosexual?

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I am rolling with it casually; I'm also asexual. I don't see these two as being mutually exclusive. You're acting as if I'm written my asexuality on a stone tablet, when instead all I'm doing is observing a fact about myself. I do think there's some value to proclaiming it openly and correcting misconceptions about it, as a concept, because there seems to be a lot of it floating around.

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Who sex sexuality was shameful? Not anyone that I could see.

Am I typing in another language? In my eyes I pretty clearly differentiated between actual asexuality and those who proclaim it, a la those in the past on this forum I have repeatedly mentioned, out of social fears. That's the precise point I started from when I came in to respond to the entire thread being devoted to shaming sexuality. Nathan is the one I was referring to, not you. He's the sole reason I posted in this thread, not you. Calling sexual activity perverse repeatedly is pretty akin to calling it shameful, but I apologize for not being perfectly explicit in my wording. This thread is driving me insane.

[fezzyfestoon]

I was being broad because I was trying not to be rude in calling out specific people outside the initial point I made to Nathan, but I definitely apologize for overreacting. I thought the whole tone and direction was bizarre and wanted to make an appropriately brief comment and move on. And now I feel like I'm talking in circles and I'm dumbfounded by the extreme reaction I've received from the other people who've responded so far.

[fezzyfestoon]

This was a fascinating thread to read, for whatever that's worth.

I'm embarrassed by it