Is monogamy becoming an underrated value in our society?

[Kitteh]

Monogamy no.

Long-term romantic commitment (between two or more people, with or without sexual exclusivity) very very much yes.

[Kitteh]

Obviously, "polygamy" as practiced in modern days and in history, is something disgusting and generally oppressive toward women. So voted yes.

What the hell, again with the infantilizing of women.

Are you really going to deny that historically polygamy (which in the majority of cases has meant polygyny) has been oppressive of women in the vast majority of cultures where it has been practiced?

That's not saying monogamy hasn't either, quite the opposite.

[Kitteh]

Girls are the worst when it comes to this. They all want to love a story like The Notebook or whatever, and if that doesn't happen, they grow flaky. Part of the reason my ex and I broke up after 2 and a half years was distance and because her perfect love story was falling apart. She did not want to work on it or try to work through the distance, which was temporary, and instead just wanted to end it.

That fits in with what women have told me, I find they're more likely to have the following order of preference:
Be with someone they're crazy about > be alone for life > "settle" for someone

Is that really wrong though? To me, "settling" seems like the worst of both worlds, the loss of freedom and independence of a relationship without the closeness and emotional connection of one. I look at my parents, for example, who were "married" only in the sense that they owned their house jointly and filed taxes together, but never showed any real love for each other, slept in separate beds, etc. That sounds like hell to me personally. I think the order of preferences you gave is the most rational, unless you have a strong desire to have children, stronger than your romantic desires, and you don't want to have to deal with the problems of single parenthood (not that there's anything wrong with being a single parent, but it's a lot of work). Since I don't even want kids, that doesn't apply to me.

[Kitteh]

Yeah, not to defend opebo, but I dont see how having a particularly high sex drive is at all immoral or perverse. Now, you can debate whether the way opebo goes about satisfying his is moral, but that's a separate issue.

[Kitteh]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Slut-shaming is making women feeling guilty about violating traditional gender expectations; it is based on the double standard between men and women. Saying someone has too much sex drive is not inherently slut-shaming (not that I agree with it, necessarily). On the other hand, you seem to have no problem with opebo's acephobia.

I couldn't have said this better myself. I don't agree with shaming someone for their sex drive in any way, for being too high or too low  but by any objective standard what opebo has said to Nathan in this thread is far more objectionable than what Nathan has said in response.

Also, I really haven't ever heard a good argument for making hedonism your guiding moral principle, or one that doesn't make you sound like a sociopath. Other than utilitarianism, which requires a much more altruistic type of hedonism than opebo is practicing.

[Kitteh]

Also, I really haven't ever heard a good argument for making hedonism your guiding moral principle, or one that doesn't make you sound like a sociopath. Other than utilitarianism, which requires a much more altruistic type of hedonism than opebo is practicing.

Dude, my argument is for sociopathology, not for hedonism.  And after all that is how society is actually run.

Good to know you're a sociopath then.

[Kitteh]

Tony, what is it that gets you going about Nathan's point of view?

Regardless of Nathan's point of view (which is obviously much closer to mine than mine is to yours), he's being as articulate as one possibly can on these kinds of topics, while you are just... being yourself.

'Articulate'?  He just said he likes monogamy, doesn't like sex, and name-dropped Hume.  It wasn't terrible or anything, but I wasn't really amused all that much.
[/quote]

Almost anything is a better argument than "I like fycking lots of Thai girls".

[Kitteh]

'Articulate'?  He just said he likes monogamy, doesn't like sex, and name-dropped Hume.  It wasn't terrible or anything, but I wasn't really amused all that much.

Almost anything is a better argument than "I like fycking lots of Thai girls".

Actually no, nothing is a better argument than "I like X" - it is indisputable, n'est-ce_pas?

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that you like fycking Thai women.

[Kitteh]

This thread makes me embarrassed for everyone posting in it. Scott should mercy lock it. Also, how old is Nathan?

I take exception to the implication that it matters.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

I wonder how people would respond to a similar argument about gay teenagers. "They're too young to know that they're gay for sure, most of them haven't had sex with anyone of any gender, a lot of it is driven by a natural teenage awkwardness and embarrassment around the other sex leading these kids to think they're gay, they should at least try being in a heterosexual relationship first, etc". My guess is that it wouldn't be taken so well. 

BTW - I think this should be nominated for worst threat in the history of Atlas...

It's not even close. The Sandra Fluke thread was definitely worse than this one, especially before BK sanitized it. I'm sure there were some terrible threads here before I joined, too.

Oh and most people who claim to be asexual, are actually just scared of sex... not targeting anyone in particular. But this is my experience.

To be fair, you did say it was just your experience, so I'm not attacking you or anything, but just saying that's not a really reliable basis.

[Kitteh]

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex with women, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. SexHeterosexuality isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for straight sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Again, let's turn this around. Striking how close it comes to things I'm sure many of the LGBT people on this forum have heard from homophobic relatives at some point.

[Kitteh]

Sex when you're in lovewith a woman is the best thing. I couldn't imagine anyone not liking it or holding their same ahomosexual views once they experience such a thing.

[Kitteh]

It doesn't bother me if you don't want to have sex with women, but this whole thing smacks of judgment and ignorance. SexHeterosexuality isn't a cultural phenomenon, it's a basic human instinct. As is making the decision at 21 or so that you know for a fact you have a distaste for straight sex. If you happen not to have enjoyed it, that's fine and I have no problem with that. When it turns to being framed as a life decision you seem to feel superior for making, I find that wildly offensive. But I don't think that's what it is either, polnut hit it on the head. And the difference is that I'm not trying to make you feel bad for it, it's a totally understandable position to be in. My suggestion is to just not go making grand proclamations when I guarantee you'll feel differently about it when you find a girl you really like or suffer a lapse in judgment and submit to a fling with a crush or whatever.

Again, let's turn this around. Striking how close it comes to things I'm sure many of the LGBT people on this forum have heard from homophobic relatives at some point.

Jesus, are you even reading my post?! It's all about not judging other people's sexuality or shaming them for it. What a dick...

I was reading your post, in fact I was quoting it word-for-word.

[Kitteh]

So then you're just an asshole who'd rather be rude than have a decent conversation?

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

[Kitteh]

I'm pointing out that asexuality is a sexual orientation, the same as hetero/homo/bisexuality is, and that the arguments used against the former bear a lot of similarity to the arguments used against the latter.

Why? We've had several teenagers coming around talking about how they've sworn off sex, or they hate it, or it's disgusting without ever having had even a remotely sexual experience. I'm sure there are a couple experienced adults here and there who have legitimate aversions to it for whatever reasons, but around here it tends to be far more related to immaturity, fear, or the all-too-prevalent social dysfunction. So forgive me for wanting to clear that up, but it has everything to do with age.

Stop trying to create an issue where there isn't one. I don't appreciate being mischaracterized.

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

[Kitteh]

Like I said many, many, many times very clearly, I couldn't care less if someone identifies as asexual. I made an observation based on my experiences with people on this forum and assigned no judgment to anyone's sexuality in any way, which is exactly what it is I posted in here to oppose by explicitly saying that sexuality is not something that should be shamed or looked down on. And Torie's experience only lends to my original point that it's silly to make a life decision about something and commit so deeply to it at such an early age. You never know and it's obnoxious to go making declarations about your sexuality or anyone else's. My own views on asexuality haven't even come into the conversation because it's none of my damn business. You seem to want to pick a fight with someone who isn't here, and you've zeroed in on my posts as the ones you're going to turn into the disparaging ones you wanted to fight. I take offense to that and I won't be characterized as some sort of sexual hardliner forcing my views on others. Because like I said, my views haven't even come up and they won't.

Please read what I said again.

Again, if someone were to say that they were sure there were some adults who are legitimately gay, but on a forum where the majority of people are so young it tends to be related to other factors, do you see how that would offend a lot of people? I don't mean to mischaracterize what you're saying, I'm not implying that you hate gay people or asexuals or that you're a bigot or anything like that. I just strongly disagree with the point that you're making, which is that on a place with a lot of young and socially awkward people like the Atlas forum, the majority of people who would declare themselves asexual are not actually asexual and will at some point when they're older and more experienced no longer call themselves that. Would you say that's a correct interpretation of the argument you're making? If not, I apologize for misunderstanding. But if so, I hope you'll understand why someone like myself who believes that asexuality is just one kind of sexual orientation would strongly disagree with what your position, in the same way that I would to a parallel argument against any other sexual orientation.

I do not believe that you are bigoted or hate asexuality in any way, and I have never said so in this thread or anywhere else.

[Kitteh]

What else are you trying to imply by directly comparing me to a homophobe?

I was demonstrating the similarity of your arguments to arguments used against young people identifying as gay. I apologize if they came off as a personal comparison. In a good debate, you should be attacking the other person's arguments without attacking the other person, which is what I was trying to do there. I'm sorry if it came off as a personal attack, I sincerely did not mean them that way.

[Kitteh]

Again, it is amazing to me how word-for-word similar this sounds to things that are said about being gay. "It's a choice not a sexual orientation", etc.

[Kitteh]

This thread has a lot of experts about women.  A lot of pontificating and high horsing.

How many "Opinion of x" threads are created on this forum every day? This forum is full of pontificating and high horsing, in fact that's one of it's defining characteristics. I don't actually think that's a bad thing, because let's face it, it's fun to be an arrogant snob offering your opinions on everything as if they actually matter, and doing that IRL tends to get people to not like you, so it's cool to have somewhere to do that online

Being transgender doesn't make you an expert on sexuality.

No, and I never claimed it did. I do think that it gives me some more understanding of gender and especially the way society treats men and women differently, though, given that I'm one of the few people on the planet to have experienced both firsthand.

But I don't think prostitution is some abuse of women, either.  Men want sex... these women choose to provide it. Now of course anybody coerced into the profession is very much abused and traumatized...

It always amazes me how many liberal/leftist men are willing to adopt laissez-faire "they chose it" arguments with regards to prostitutes when they are appalled when free-marketers apply such arguments to underpaid and exploited Walmart workers, for example.

Although, to be fair, I'm not sure whether you were applying this to the concept of prostitution in theory or how it's actually practiced in most cases in the world today. If it's the former I agree with you and I apologize for picking on you, it was more the way some people (including a certain poster here) use such arguments to defend the latter (or, in the case of that particular poster, certain lifestyle choices they have made).

...but let's treat women as women.  They can be catty, passive aggressive, and manipulative.  Most of my female friends use sex as a weapon... denying their boyfriends sex because they didn't do something they wanted.  I find that behavior to be immature and ridiculous.

1) All of the things you mentioned apply to men as well, or at least have some very close equivalent.

2) I don't see the relevance of this to what we're discussing.

But I won't pretend to really understand them or their sexuality because I'm not attracted to them... even emotionally, I feel more comfortable with guys.  So my womyns knowledge is cursory at best.

Fair enough, although I think you can understand a lot with just the human capacity for empathy, which is quite powerful for most non-sociopaths. 

And let's face it.. .our society is leaving boys behind in education and opportunities as women shoot past par and pull ahead of men.

This is not due to some inherent superiority in women... but a system that has become geared towards girls.  Girls are more patient and can sit and listen for long periods of times while boys get antsy... so the girls learn better because the teaching style benefits their natural behavior.

The idea is not equality... but equity.  Each gender puts their contribution in.  They won't all be equal.  Men are better at some things than women, and vice versa.  But that when it comes to how we treat eachother, and how our institutions treat each gender.. then equality must enter the picture.

This is an issue I'm happy to debate about, but we're already pretty far from the original topic of this thread and this thread is already long enough, so I don't feel like adding yet another digression here.


Anyway, I actually like this thread, it's been a very interesting debate and I'm honestly amazed (in a good way) that it hasn't gone worse. For a thread that's a) on the internet, b) about an extremely sensitive and emotional issue, and c) on a forum that has a few problems with sexism already, to put it mildly, I'd say this thread has been way above average.

[Kitteh]

I love how Snowy starts with "This thread has a lot of experts about women.  A lot of pontificating and high horsing." and then goes on into a long rant explaining what women supposedly are...

Much of what Snowguy said is right- I don't think he made any unfair or sexist assumptions, instead he provided a general commentary.

He provided a pontificating general commentary, yes. Which is exactly what everyone on this forum does, as I said.