Bullying

[fezzyfestoon]

Am I the only one that finds the general conversation surrounding bullying completely off base? We encourage victim mentalities and persecute children who are often the most troubled. We ignore the crisis of confidence and insist nothing negative ever be said to our kids. Yet we make bullies out to be criminals, essentially bullying them and likely setting them up for failure. I think bullying is a problem, but I don't think it's the problem we're making it out to be. It's only going to get worse if we keep treating our children like helpless losers.

[fezzyfestoon]

These stories are the kinds we should be giving attention to. The media fetishization of violence and the perpetuation of creating celebrities of murderers and bullies no doubt contributes to our culture of violence. That and the casual airing extreme violence it in fiction. Maybe if being a positive influence on your community garnered any attention at all, our social media obsessed kids would be more inclined to be good people.

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

Am I the only one that finds the general conversation surrounding bullying completely off base? We encourage victim mentalities and persecute children who are often the most troubled. We ignore the crisis of confidence and insist nothing negative ever be said to our kids. Yet we make bullies out to be criminals, essentially bullying them and likely setting them up for failure. I think bullying is a problem, but I don't think it's the problem we're making it out to be. It's only going to get worse if we keep treating our children like helpless losers.

I was the fat kid in high school, so I was pretty directly affected by bullying. I quickly learned not to seek help from teachers or my parents, since doing so was entirely ineffective and generally led to an acceleration of the bullying and further isolation from my peers. None of the kids stepped in. Even the teachers who witnessed bullying did very little. As someone who is still dealing with the effects of 20 years of being called human garbage, I assure you: Bullying is indeed the problem we're making it out to be. Bullying conditions victims to just accept the bullying.

The biggest issue with bullying, I think, is education. Teachers need to understand what it is, and what to look for. Teachers need to understand how bullying happens in 2013, and the signs to look for with regard to internet/social media bullying. Educators don't just have a responsibility to teach -- they have a responsibility for the well being of the children in their care when those children are in fact in their care. Too often, teachers look the other way because "kids will be kids." It's bullshit.

The only way to take the power away from bullies is for teachers to be more proactive in looking for it. The burden needs to be on the teachers and administrators to notice it and stop it on their own, and not have to wait for a student to reach the breaking point -- a mental breakdown, a school shooting, or suicide. If we wait for the weak and oppressed to rise up against their aggressors, we're going to be waiting a very long time.

[fezzyfestoon]

Yeah, I experienced bullying too, and the only thing worse than taking it was having an adult step in. Kids need to have the balls to do what's right and stand up for each other. Standing by needs to be emphasized to kids as being just as bad as bullying itself. Kids need to be the answer. Teachers aren't around all the time to protect kids. And kids shouldn't feel like they need protection, they should be empowered and defended. I know it's hard for kids who are bullied and there's nothing you can do in a lot of situations, but I just don't think pity is a healthy way to help someone. Nor is being shielded by a larger display of force as their only line of defense. We empower the bullies by acknowledging that they have so much influence over their peers that no one but a person in a position of great power can stop them. I don't think that teaches them or the victims anything other than that bullies won't or don't have to stop if not for authority. It's not right or wrong that forces them to stop, just force. I do see your point, and teachers do definitely need to be more educated on, aware of, and proactive about it.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

I kind of agree with you and with Moderate here...

I think the desire to treat children with (excuse pun) kid gloves does perhaps leave them without any actual coping mechanisms. I got bullied, not a lot, but some time to time, being chubby at times and more bookish than sporty it was inevitable.

One trend that's made me insane... parents accusing teachers for bullying their kids... because they either told them off or said they didn't do something well.

I realised very quickly that the best way to deal with it was to either let it wash away or stand up to them. Most bullies will target those who they think won't fight back.

Once in HS a guy was flicking the back of my ears, he'd been giving me some crap on and off for months... I decided I'd had enough. I said to the teacher "excuse me for this in advance, I turned in my seat, looked him square in the eye and said "keep your f^%#ing hands to yourself"... we actually ended up getting along really well.

But there are scenarios where nothing will stop someone... and there needs to be mechanisms to ensure they know victimisation will NOT be tolerated. There are always going to be kids vulnerable to this sort of thing, regardless of what kind of confidence we try to give them.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Am I the only one that finds the general conversation surrounding bullying completely off base? We encourage victim mentalities and persecute children who are often the most troubled. We ignore the crisis of confidence and insist nothing negative ever be said to our kids. Yet we make bullies out to be criminals, essentially bullying them and likely setting them up for failure. I think bullying is a problem, but I don't think it's the problem we're making it out to be. It's only going to get worse if we keep treating our children like helpless losers.

I was the fat kid in high school, so I was pretty directly affected by bullying. I quickly learned not to seek help from teachers or my parents, since doing so was entirely ineffective and generally led to an acceleration of the bullying and further isolation from my peers. None of the kids stepped in. Even the teachers who witnessed bullying did very little. As someone who is still dealing with the effects of 20 years of being called human garbage, I assure you: Bullying is indeed the problem we're making it out to be. Bullying conditions victims to just accept the bullying.

The biggest issue with bullying, I think, is education. Teachers need to understand what it is, and what to look for. Teachers need to understand how bullying happens in 2013, and the signs to look for with regard to internet/social media bullying. Educators don't just have a responsibility to teach -- they have a responsibility for the well being of the children in their care when those children are in fact in their care. Too often, teachers look the other way because "kids will be kids." It's bullshit.

The only way to take the power away from bullies is for teachers to be more proactive in looking for it. The burden needs to be on the teachers and administrators to notice it and stop it on their own, and not have to wait for a student to reach the breaking point -- a mental breakdown, a school shooting, or suicide. If we wait for the weak and oppressed to rise up against their aggressors, we're going to be waiting a very long time.

This, x1000.

[DC Al Fine]

In the rural school where I grew up and was bullied ferociously through middle school, you'd be right. But we were all white trash. The only difference between me and the bullies was that they were troubled white trash and I was smart, ambitious white trash. I fought back by improving my social skills and learning more about the world. Adults helped me not through pity and coddling, but by helping me develop and creating a setting where I could put what I had learned into practice.

The impression that I got in college, however, was different. At your typical suburban school, the real bullies aren't the troubled kids. They're the rich, talented, popular ones, and there's no good way to respond to that, whether you're an adult or a child.

Agreed. There's two sorts of bullies:
1) Trouble poor kid
2) Bratty rich kid

It's easy to respond to the first one. I was briefly bullied by a the first kind of bully. I started a fight with him and he left me alone. I'm not so sure that would have worked with the second kind.

[Obamanation]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

I agree 100000%

[Warren 4 Secretary of Everything]

I for one believe they may be taking this counter-offensive on bullying too far. Any little joke can somehow be connected to bullying.
A cousin of mine and his friends were laughing about some kid who was "supposedly" jacking off in class. Or it looked like he was. They didn't say anything to him about it, they just laughed when they saw it. Anyway, two kids told the VP, and the others were threatened with suspension for "bullying". It made no sense.

[Vosem]

In my bratty suburban area, I was bullied quite heavily in middle school but today, as a sophomore, it's long since stopped. (7th grade, I recall, I came back from summer break to a new school year and it simply failed to resume). The correct response, in my view, is not to react whatsoever; unless you can beat the sh**t out of the bullies (and if you can you won't be bullied), fighting back will only make them more determined. They're looking for a show; you're giving them one. Similarly, adults cannot govern every part of a child's life, and invoking them will worsen your social standing, and make you dependent; if you're lucky, it might provide relief in the short run, but in the long run it will make matters worse. The correct response is simply not to entertain your bullies; eventually they'll go away. I say this as an ex-victim.

The exception -- and of course at the middle school level this isn't a problem, but at my age this is the most common form of bullying -- comes at the crossroads of bullying and sexual harassment. In this case, it's not anything you're doing so much as your very existence which is entertaining the bully, and having never been subjected to this I have no idea what the 'correct response' could possibly be. (Obviously, this has a limit -- after reaching a certain point you're best off telling the authorities, but in most 'low-level' cases you have the same problem of this being very stigmatized).

Just my two cents very late at night.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Bullying at a young age should be dealt with differently.  In high school, kids are mature enough, and when bullying crosses the line into physical assault and battery, it should be treated as such.

[Obamanation]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

Nonsense. There are numerous ways of dealing successfully with bullies, and as someone who never had the physical bulk or agility to beat anyone in a fight, I know this well. We shouldn't teach children of any age that violence is the best solution to their problems - or even an acceptable one. For many children, adopting your attitude will only lead to self-doubt, anger, and misplaced aggression.

Yours is exactly the kind of attitude that leads to the unsatisfying, sterilized and politically-correct sham of a society we live in. Violence isn't the only the option, but I'm look at what practically works and that's what would be my foremost concern as a parent trying to protect my kid.

[Obamanation]

Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. There are many options, but socking 'em is most effective and efficient, as stated.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. There are many options, but socking 'em is most effective and efficient, as stated.

Seriously, bro, we're going for a drink if I ever hit the west coast. 

[Obamanation]

Those statements aren't mutually exclusive. There are many options, but socking 'em is most effective and efficient, as stated.

Seriously, bro, we're going for a drink if I ever hit the west coast. 

Deal man!

[pbrower2a]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

Teachers have their own fear of a fight erupting in their classroom, a fight demonstrating their loss of control of the classroom and hence incompetence.

Bullying behavior that has trivial physical consequences in elementary school becomes more troublesome as kids get bigger and stronger -- and start bringing weapons. The schoolyard bully often morphs into the bar-room brawler, a genuine danger to humanity as a whole because he can put people in the hospital or the morgue.

[7,052,770]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

And if the bully is stronger and responds with his own fists?  Bullies almost always target kids weaker than them...

[Obamanation]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

And if the bully is stronger and responds with his own fists?  Bullies almost always target kids weaker than them...

Bullies prey on the socially weaker, not necessarily the physically weaker.

A man with skin in the game almost always holds the advantage.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The only effective way to deal with bullies is to sock 'em and show them who's boss.

I'm perfectly serious, laws against fighting in school are killing kids' ability to defend and stick up for themselves.

Teachers have their own fear of a fight erupting in their classroom, a fight demonstrating their loss of control of the classroom and hence incompetence.

Dude, he didn't say start the brawl in class.  In my day (spoken like an old), it was handled at the bus stop or after school, and for real youngs, the playground.  In today's world you'd be expelled for it.....but back then it was standard fare.

[Beet]

My instinct is to agree with Obamanation and fezzy, more. Kids need to learn to stand up for themselves. On the other hand, I was bullied, and it would often drive me into an incoherent rage. I felt that I needed to "top" the other person and thus do something crazier and more violent than they'd expect. Fortunately I never really hurt anybody, but I can't say for certain that I never would have. It's when "fighting back" leads to something really injurious that can send somebody to the hospital that I worry.

However, assuming that even kids know deep down what lines they can cross and which they can't, I do think that bullying can be character building if the kid responds to it and defends themselves. Heck, even as an adult, I thrive on being mistreated. It sends me into overdrive to prove myself, and I end up being a lot more productive and bold than I normally am. Sometimes, I feel that modern life is just so meaningless, too much has been done to avoid pain, and that if we had greater obstacles to overcome, we would actually be happier in the long run.

[nclib]

Bullying should certainly be taken quite seriously. Children have a lot less protection from the schoolyard bully than adults do from a violent/harassing adult. Society blames victims of bullying far more than victimized adults, and does not stigmatize the bully as much as an adult offender even when their actions are identical.

As for beating up the bully, a) it's not necessarily physically possible, b) we shouldn't put the burden on the victim, c) some adults who have the attitude of 'let kids deal with it themselves', often end up nevertheless punishing the victim when he/she eventually retaliates. Also, often the bullying will continue regardless of how the victim responds (or doesn't respond).

As for the child being frowned upon for turning to an adult, yes adults can't always be there, but since adults often are nearby anyway, this is certainly preferable to simply dealing with it.

[pbrower2a]

Bullying should certainly be taken quite seriously. Children have a lot less protection from the schoolyard bully than adults do from a violent/harassing adult. Society blames victims of bullying far more than victimized adults, and does not stigmatize the bully as much as an adult offender even when their actions are identical.

Adults can leave the saloon when anger flares in a drunk. They can even walk away from a job site in which someone gets hostile. The only bullying that adults can't easily walk away from is in a prison.

Leaving the schoolyard in response to a bully has consequences that a child recognizes as unpleasant.   
 

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(1) The teacher may recognize the retribution as excessive. That is especially true for an incompetent teacher, a teacher new to the school, or a substitute. As a substitute I typically had to refer students at the stage of verbal escalation that usually precedes a fight. Profanity itself is ordinarily something with which I can deal -- except for "F--- you", which are "fighting words as are ethnic and sexual slurs. (Most profanity is empty, as in "I don't like this f---ing assignment", to which I begin with having the student say that sentence without the f-word and asking whether the sentence lost anything. Then I explain why the assignment is to be done).

(2) Fights themselves can indicate incompetence of a teacher. If they are hallway disturbances (as a sub I saw more of them than a regular teacher because students didn't realize what I was) I invariably wrote them up. Some other teacher's students? I thought that I was doing someone a favor.

(3) Fights can lead to injuries. High-school students are often close to having adult bulk and muscles. The fists are bigger. Add to that, any mean-spirited kid can get more clever about causing an injury and become increasingly sadistic. Fists are bad enough, but introduce a weapon of any kind and things can get messy.

(4) A teacher might be tempted to break up the fight -- and get hurt. School districts do not like having to pay a salary to a teacher who is inured and unable to work.

(5) Some students are unable to fight back -- especially if disabled.

(6) Above all, non-violence is a virtue. Shouldn't we be teaching that virtue?

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Bar-room brawls and street fights are immature behavior.

[Obamanation]

Bullying should certainly be taken quite seriously. Children have a lot less protection from the schoolyard bully than adults do from a violent/harassing adult. Society blames victims of bullying far more than victimized adults, and does not stigmatize the bully as much as an adult offender even when their actions are identical.

Adults can leave the saloon when anger flares in a drunk. They can even walk away from a job site in which someone gets hostile. The only bullying that adults can't easily walk away from is in a prison.

Leaving the schoolyard in response to a bully has consequences that a child recognizes as unpleasant.   
 

You must be logged in to read this quote.

(1) The teacher may recognize the retribution as excessive. That is especially true for an incompetent teacher, a teacher new to the school, or a substitute. As a substitute I typically had to refer students at the stage of verbal escalation that usually precedes a fight. Profanity itself is ordinarily something with which I can deal -- except for "F--- you", which are "fighting words as are ethnic and sexual slurs. (Most profanity is empty, as in "I don't like this f---ing assignment", to which I begin with having the student say that sentence without the f-word and asking whether the sentence lost anything. Then I explain why the assignment is to be done).

(2) Fights themselves can indicate incompetence of a teacher. If they are hallway disturbances (as a sub I saw more of them than a regular teacher because students didn't realize what I was) I invariably wrote them up. Some other teacher's students? I thought that I was doing someone a favor.

(3) Fights can lead to injuries. High-school students are often close to having adult bulk and muscles. The fists are bigger. Add to that, any mean-spirited kid can get more clever about causing an injury and become increasingly sadistic. Fists are bad enough, but introduce a weapon of any kind and things can get messy.

(4) A teacher might be tempted to break up the fight -- and get hurt. School districts do not like having to pay a salary to a teacher who is inured and unable to work.

(5) Some students are unable to fight back -- especially if disabled.

(6) Above all, non-violence is a virtue. Shouldn't we be teaching that virtue?

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Bar-room brawls and street fights are immature behavior.

Since we all became sissies?