Margaret Thatcher dies at 87

[Gustaf]

I should want to register the fact than she only hastened the collapse of UK industry and mining. She did it in a pretty brutal and heartless way, too.

But, it would have collasped at a point.

The Industrial Era is finished. We are currently entering the Tech Era.

The divide is between those who think the millions of lives destroyed in the process are collateral damage of the free market's wonderful work, and those who think they should be taken care of and and helped find a spot in the new economic order. And that's a big difference.

That really wasn't the divide back in those days. That it can even be claimed to be true now is largely because political leaders like Thatcher won the debate on whether economic change should be welcomed.

[opebo]

The Industrial Era is finished. We are currently entering the Tech Era.

Completely false dichotomy and incredibly blinkered of those who don't see it - industrial production still occurs and almost exactly as before, it has just been moved.  And 'Tech' is just an aspect of industry, and not really one that can support more than a small segment of the population.

The divide is between those who think the millions of lives destroyed in the process are collateral damage of the free market's wonderful work, and those who think they should be taken care of and and helped find a spot in the new economic order. And that's a big difference.

Its more than that - many of us on the left understand 'the free market' as being nothing more than government policy.  The idea that it is somehow an inevitable or natural force is absurd.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Yes; people have been making that kind of (hilarious pseudo-Marxist on some level) claim/prediction/whatever for quite a few decades now. What should be noted is that pretty much none of the jobs created in technology (or whatever the buzzword of the time is) are to be found in the areas hit hardest by deindustrialisation.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

On a lighter note, I see that it has been decided that the funeral will be 'framed by British music', but that the (long) list of British composers who's works will be played do not include Britten. Curious, given the amount (and quality) of church music that he wrote. Speculation welcome.

Of course it does include stuff by Vaughan Williams and Holst; are the Thatcher family/Downing Street aware that they were a couple of dirty reds?

[Gustaf]

Yes; people have been making that kind of (hilarious pseudo-Marxist on some level) claim/prediction/whatever for quite a few decades now. What should be noted is that pretty much none of the jobs created in technology (or whatever the buzzword of the time is) are to be found in the areas hit hardest by deindustrialisation.

It's likely unfeasible over time for relative population shares of different regions to remain entirely fixed.

It is quite natural for the economy to change over time in many ways and I think history shows us that it is not a good idea to try to keep it static. Some suffering in the transition is probably unavoidable even if it can be mitigated. I do think one can definitely make the case though that the current mainstream position of Northern European left (to welcome structural change but mitigate harms) is largely a result of the policy shift initiated by the right in the 80s.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I should want to register the fact than she only hastened the collapse of UK industry and mining. She did it in a pretty brutal and heartless way, too.

But, it would have collasped at a point.

The Industrial Era is finished. We are currently entering the Tech Era.

The divide is between those who think the millions of lives destroyed in the process are collateral damage of the free market's wonderful work, and those who think they should be taken care of and and helped find a spot in the new economic order. And that's a big difference.

That really wasn't the divide back in those days. That it can even be claimed to be true now is largely because political leaders like Thatcher won the debate on whether economic change should be welcomed.

But Labour would have had to deal with that reality no matter what. They would eventually have no choice but to work at alleviating the social consequences of these economic trends, rather than gleefully aggravating them like Thatcher did.

[MaxQue]

Yes; people have been making that kind of (hilarious pseudo-Marxist on some level) claim/prediction/whatever for quite a few decades now. What should be noted is that pretty much none of the jobs created in technology (or whatever the buzzword of the time is) are to be found in the areas hit hardest by deindustrialisation.

Mostly true. One of jobs of the government is to giving reasons and incitative to "tech" businesses to move and establish themselves in those areas or helping willing poor people from devitalized areas to relocate in areas with jobs.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I do think one can definitely make the case though that the current mainstream position of Northern European left (to welcome structural change but mitigate harms) is largely a result of the policy shift initiated by the right in the 80s.

I don't know if that's exactly true; the response of the Wilson government to the NCB's rationalisation programme in the 1960s (a massive transfer of resources from older coalfields to newer/more productive ones) wasn't to oppose or even limit pit closures, but to replace lost mining jobs with new manufacturing ones.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

As everyone and their pets know, twas Thatcher's funeral today.

There have been alternative ceremonies in some mining towns and pit villages. This is Goldthorpe, a village near Barnsley:

[afleitch]

My indifference towards Thatcher has now moved towards mild respect in part due to reactions like those above.

[YL]

I remain uncomfortable about people celebrating a death, but pictures like that have to be taken in the context of what the policies of the 1980s did to places like Goldthorpe (something which I think a lot of her fans, particularly those outside the UK, simply aren't aware of) and the lack of recovery since.  Note the depressing backdrop to the party.

[Silent Hunter]

I didn't like Mrs Thatcher, but some of the reaction is overdoing it. She's not the worst PM we've ever had, not by a long shot.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I will accept that Lord Liverpool was worse.

[Silent Hunter]

I will accept that Lord Liverpool was worse.

I think you can add Baldwin and Eden to the list as well.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

On the subject of Glenda Jackson, I will concede this: her speech was one of the most passionate I have ever heard. I am re-listening to it right now, because it was just so good. It was amazing, not the substance of course, but the general tone and rhetoric of it.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

The response over there is messed up. She wasn't Osama Bin Ladden.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Have a closer look at the Goldthorpe photo. Specifically the buildings in the background. You can still continue to regard that kind of thing as 'messed up' if you like, but you have to understand the context.

[J. J.]

She was a rare combination, uncompromising and effective. 

She remade the UK.

[Silent Hunter]

She was a rare combination, uncompromising and effective. 

She remade the UK.

That is a statement we can all agree on, whether we like that remaking or not.

[Supersonic]

I will accept that Lord Liverpool was worse.

I think you can add Baldwin and Eden to the list as well.

Why Baldwin? He was pretty sound.

[You kip if you want to...]

I will accept that Lord Liverpool was worse.

I think you can add Baldwin and Eden to the list as well.

Neither were in office for 11 years and neither fundamentally changed the country/ruined vast parts of it.

With Baldwin as well, most of those with memory of him as PM are probably dead. And Eden's too forgettable to stir much emotion, bit like how I imagine the right'll see Gordon Brown in a few decades.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Baldwin was the dominant political figure of his day (as unbelievable as that sounds now) and while you can't sanely blame him for the Depression you can point out that he didn't life a fycking finger to help the places that were hit especially hard by it. This is before we even think about the record of his governments in the 1920s.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Something that everyone should read: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/19/north-sea-oil-80s-boom