Are there really more Americans of German ancestry than English ancestry?

[Franknburger]

In addition to my previous post, here some links for those interested in further information:

a:) Name list with additional biographical background on 75 German colonists who settled in Nieuw Amsterdam before 1667;

b.) Longer presentation (in German) about early German migration to North America: By the year 1800, an estimated half million of ethnic Germans lived in the USA (8-9% of the total population).

c.) Short overview (in English) about late 19th century emigration from Schleswig-Holstein to the USA. Good links (to the extent they are working).

d:) More extensive overview (in German) on late 19th / early 20th century emigration from Schleswig-Holstein to the USA (around 160.000 in total between 1871 and 1925(. Scroll down towards the end for a map by county of origin, and annual data (incomplete, as Danish, Dutch and British ports are not covered).

Official emigration statistics from Schleswig-Holstein via German ports, 1880-89 (69,942 in total):

[bgwah]

Don't forget this great NY Times interactive map showing foreign born population by decade (1880-2000): http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/03/10/us/20090310-immigration-explorer.html?_r=0

[Mechaman]

Unless you or your parent is an immigrant from England (which is highly unusual these days), your most recent English antecedents probably came here during the 18th or 17th century. That's a lot of remove and most people probably aren't aware of that connection unless they're into genealogy.

Actually there was a fair amount of emigration from Britain to the U.S.A. in the 19th century; often of skilled workers.

Does that include Ireland as a part of Britain during that time period? I don't see what motivation a skilled worker in 19th century Britain would have for emigrating. It's not as if there was a shortage of opportunity there.

lol, have you ever read a Charles Dickens novel?

[jimrtex]

These are the 1890 Census figures for foreign stock (with one or more parents from the country, or foreign born).   The foreign stock represented 33% of the white population, so just short of 30% of the total population of almost 63 million.  The countries represented in the table represent about 90% of the foreign stock.

[..]

And completely making up a number, perhaps 50% or more, were primarily English ancestry, with the rest Scots, Scotch-Irish, Welsh, German, Irish, and bits of other groups such as Dutch, French Huguenot.  That is another 20 million of English ancestry that is not included in the table.

A few technical notes to this otherwise excellent post:
a.) A good part (probably more than half) of what is being listed as "Dansih" should have come from Schleswig-Holstein, which became German after the 1864 German-Danish war.

Census Bureau practice has been to base place of birth on the borders in place at the time of the census.  Thus my Alsatian ancestors would be shown as German in the 1890 census, even though their emigration coincided with the Franco-Prussian War.  Of course this might depend on the skill of the census taker.

b.) Due to restrictive Danish emigration laws towards the US (they preferred people emigrating to their own overseas colonies, especially the Virgin Islands), it was quite common to emigrate via foreign, especially Dutch and British ports. As such, some of the Dutch / British born immigrants may in fact have their parents been originating from Schleswig-Holstein / Denmark. But we are probably talking minor numbers here.

The 1890 census was the first conducted with Hollerith cards, and they had extensive reporting on persons of mixed-parentage foreign born. 

For example, there were 137K of mixed Irish-English parentage.  30K of those were foreign born.  9021 persons were of mixed German-Danish parentage, with 1573 of those foreign born.

Overall, 22.6% of the mixed-parentage persons were foreign born, lots of these were mixed Canadian-British parentage,  A majority of the Canadian-Scottish persons were foreign born.

[Franknburger]

A few technical notes to this otherwise excellent post:
a.) A good part (probably more than half) of what is being listed as "Dansih" should have come from Schleswig-Holstein, which became German after the 1864 German-Danish war.

Census Bureau practice has been to base place of birth on the borders in place at the time of the census.  Thus my Alsatian ancestors would be shown as German in the 1890 census, even though their emigration coincided with the Franco-Prussian War.  Of course this might depend on the skill of the census taker.

You are probably right. On a quick internet check, at the beginning of the 20th century, Denmark had a population of 2.5 million, and Schleswig-Holstein (including Lübeck & Lauenburg, which were never Danish) around 1.3 million, which is a ratio of roughly 2:1. With some 100-120k immigrants from Schleswig-Holstein until 1890, the 240 k Danish-born US citizens as reported by the 1890 census are most likely 'proper' Danes and do not include the Schleswig-Holsteiner.

As to the census-taker's skills - it seems that especially Northern European immigrants in the late 19th century went to professionally developed 'colonies' in the mid-West, where they clustered together. If the census people were not completely dumb (and I bet they weren't), they would have selected people from inside these settlements as census takers (and if it were only for language reasons), who should know which territory each place of origin belonged to ...

[politicus]

I don't how much I should go into all this Sleswick-Holstein business because it probably interests few people, but there are a number of inaccuracies:

Lauenburg was Danish (as in part of the Danish realm, not the Kingdom of Denmark) 1815-1864.

The ethnically Danish population in central and northern Sleswick had a higher emigration ratio than ethnic Germans after 1864, as is often the case with ethnic minorities in an occupied territory, so not all S-H emigrants 1864-1920 can be considered German.

The population of Sleswick-Holstein and Lauenburg was around 40% of the total in the realm of Denmark prior to 1864, if you deduct ethnic Danes and Frisians from Sleswick and take into consideration that S-H was the wealthiest part of the realm (giving less incentive to emigrate) you are unlikely to get more than 25% "German" emigration from the Danish realm.

A substantial number of Danes emigrated from Hamburg = embarking from a German port.

The Danish government never needed, nor expected, mass emigration to the Danish West Indian Islands (or any other of its small tropical colonies, which were sold by 1850 anyway) and neither did it need emigration to the North Atlantic colonies.

[Franknburger]

Lauenburg was Danish (as in part of the Danish realm, not the Kingdom of Denmark) 1815-1864.

Yes, my mistake. I meant the Fürstentum Lübeck (Oldenburg-Eutin).

The ethnically Danish population in central and northern Sleswick had a higher emigration ratio than ethnic Germans after 1864, as is often the case with ethnic minorities in an occupied territory, so not all S-H emigrants 1864-1920 can be considered German.

Not sure about that. According to the map from my quote above, the highest emigration rate between 1867 and 1885 was from Dithmarschen (13.2% of total population), followed by Tonder (11.5%), Plön (7.8%) and Oldenburg (7.8%).  Apenrade was 7%, as was Husun. I think it is fair to say that for a number of reasons (seafaring tradition, pressure/ land losses from floods, etc.), the whole west coast had elevated emigration rates. And the quasi-feudal situation in rural East Holstein was apparently leading to higher emigration rates, than pressure on the Danish minority in Apenrade, Hadersleben or Sonderburg. That's not to say that it wasn't primarily ethnic Danes who left Husum - we will never know. What is known is that the advertising brochures for emigration that were circulating there were in German.

The population of Sleswick-Holstein and Lauenburg was around 40% of the total in the realm of Denmark prior to 1864, if you deduct ethnic Danes and Frisians from Sleswick and take into consideration that S-H was the wealthiest part of the realm (giving less incentive to emigrate) you are unlikely to get more than 25% "German" emigration from the Danish realm.

I don't think it is about "wealthy S_H" versus "poorer rest of Denmark"- Kopenhagen or Odense were surely no less wealthy than were Altona, Wandsbek or Kiel. and will most likely have had equally low emigration rates (around 2%) as the latter. The main pattern should have been West Coast (high emigration) vs. rural Geest (considerable emigration) vs. urban centres (low emigration) - in Holstein as in Schleswig as in Jutland. As such, a ratio of 240k  Danish emigrants (1890 US census) to 100-120 k Schleswig-Holstein emigrants is quite in line with overall population ratios and as such plausible.

A substantial number of Danes emigrated from Hamburg = embarking from a German port.

Good point. But when German statistics was able to provide emigration breakdowns by German province, I assume they will also have checked for foreign nationals departing from Hamburg (quite some Eastern European, especially Bohemian emigration took place via Hamburg as well).

The Danish government never needed, nor expected, mass emigration to the Danish West Indian Islands (or any other of its small tropical colonies, which were sold by 1850 anyway) and neither did it need emigration to the North Atlantic colonies.

Let me draw your attention to the "General-Patent wieder die Emigrationes nach den fremden Colonien in America" issued by the Danish King Frederik V on August 24, 1753.
I concede that this "patent" was most likely abolished long before the time in question here, but never say never .

[jimrtex]

A few technical notes to this otherwise excellent post:
a.) A good part (probably more than half) of what is being listed as "Dansih" should have come from Schleswig-Holstein, which became German after the 1864 German-Danish war.

Census Bureau practice has been to base place of birth on the borders in place at the time of the census.  Thus my Alsatian ancestors would be shown as German in the 1890 census, even though their emigration coincided with the Franco-Prussian War.  Of course this might depend on the skill of the census taker.

You are probably right. On a quick internet check, at the beginning of the 20th century, Denmark had a population of 2.5 million, and Schleswig-Holstein (including Lübeck & Lauenburg, which were never Danish) around 1.3 million, which is a ratio of roughly 2:1. With some 100-120k immigrants from Schleswig-Holstein until 1890, the 240 k Danish-born US citizens as reported by the 1890 census are most likely 'proper' Danes and do not include the Schleswig-Holsteiner.

As to the census-taker's skills - it seems that especially Northern European immigrants in the late 19th century went to professionally developed 'colonies' in the mid-West, where they clustered together. If the census people were not completely dumb (and I bet they weren't), they would have selected people from inside these settlements as census takers (and if it were only for language reasons), who should know which territory each place of origin belonged to ...

Would persons from Schleswig-Holstein have names ending in -sen?

[Franknburger]

Would persons from Schleswig-Holstein have names ending in -sen?

Most of them, especially when  from the coast - just as the Dutch and the Danes.

Just look at the list in the link below, and you know what I mean ..

In addition to my previous post, here some links for those interested in further information:

a:) Name list with additional biographical background on 75 German colonists who settled in Nieuw Amsterdam before 1667;

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

P.S: If you are looking for a way to discern Schleswig-Holsteiner and Danes by last name, you can to some extent do it by looking at the paternal root. A Pedersen, e.g., is most likely Danish, while there is a good chance that a Petersen is from Schleswig (-Holstein). Same with Poulsen and Paulsen, Christensen and Christiansen. Bjoernsen/ Bjarnesen, Brodersen, Soerensen or Ingwersen would also rather be Danish names.
Variations of the ending, e.g. 'ssen' or 'tzen' are indicating a Dutch name, though they are not completely uncommon in Schleswig-Holstein as well. A typical Dutch name that is rarely found in Schleswig-Holstein is Fransen / Franssen / Frantzen.

[jimrtex]

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

Are you able to get that to work other than Germany, Poland, and the two counties with red-and-white flags to the south?

What is the cause of the variation in the distribution of Schmitz, Smit, Schmitt, and Schmidt?

[minionofmidas]

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

Are you able to get that to work other than Germany, Poland, and the two counties with red-and-white flags to the south?

You probably found this page and then encountered the same problem as I did. Although strictly speaking it's only the search that doesn't seem to work for the additional places (which are new. Last time I surfed that site, it had only the countries listed above.) There is a very similar tool on another website for Italy. Forget the address, though, but that one also has the US - but only by state.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well Smit, obviously (and also Smid) is not German at all but Dutch.
And you totally forgot the South German spelling, Schmid! Oddly, people spelling the name like the word is spelled (Schmied) are not only relatively uncommon but distributed across the entire range of Schmidt and its regional spelling variants.
I'm much more amazed at the name's pretty complete absence in the east. Is there some east German dialect term for a smith that I'm not aware of or what?

[muon2]

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

Are you able to get that to work other than Germany, Poland, and the two counties with red-and-white flags to the south?

You probably found this page and then encountered the same problem as I did. Although strictly speaking it's only the search that doesn't seem to work for the additional places (which are new. Last time I surfed that site, it had only the countries listed above.) There is a very similar tool on another website for Italy. Forget the address, though, but that one also has the US - but only by state.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well Smit, obviously (and also Smid) is not German at all but Dutch.
And you totally forgot the South German spelling, Schmid! Oddly, people spelling the name like the word is spelled (Schmied) are not only relatively uncommon but distributed across the entire range of Schmidt and its regional spelling variants.
I'm much more amazed at the name's pretty complete absence in the east. Is there some east German dialect term for a smith that I'm not aware of or what?

Schmidt looked common across the east to me. On the relative frequency map it exceeds 2000 per million throughout.

[minionofmidas]

You're right, it's just not as ridiculously common as further west. I didn't look closely enough.

[Franknburger]

You're right, it's just not as ridiculously common as further west. I didn't look closely enough.

The concentration in the West I wouldn't call ridiculous, but an indicator of the strong local metal-processing tradition that places like the Bergische Land (Solingen, Remscheid) or the Siegerland are having.
Asides, the map is not weighted by population density, so with a relatively even name distribution, the more densely populated places will stand out against sparsely populated areas (and that is most of the East, especially the North-East).

Even though increasing mobility has blurred patterns, name research is still a great tool for historic socio-economic research across Germany. Try, for example, Schulz / Schulze / Schultze, which means "village major", and you get a good impression about historical differences in local self-rule / interest representation (you may add the Low Saxon "Burmester" to complete the picture). Timmermann/ Zimmermann (=timberman) vs. Maurer (=mason) is quite striking, though not really surprising (while you are at Maurer, you may check Ziegler = brick-maker as well). Metzger / Fleischer (=butcher) is a great indicator of early urbanisation (farmers typically did the slaughtering themselves).

Or look at Neumann / Niemann (= new man)  to find out about 13th-17th century rural mobility and migration. Smaller in numbers, but even more instructive in this respect are names like Baier/Bayer/Beier, Schwab/Schwabe, Hess/Hass, Frank/Franke, Westphal, Sachs/Sachse, Fries/Friese, Flemming, Elsässer, Pohl, or Boehme. Wend / Wende indicates indigenous Slavonic population and their migration, Walser / Welser points at a romanic origin, especially from the Wallis.

P.S: A few additions to the "names by origin" list: Dehn/Dehne, Schwede, Nordmann, Engel/ Engels/ Engelmann, Preuss, Nürnberger, Bremer, Brügger, Hunger/Unger, Römer/Roehmer, Mailänder (Milan, no idea why they cluster on the Saar and east of Stuttgart), Lambert/Lambertz (Lombardian) and, of course (how could I forget) Schweizer/ Schweitzer.
Names that I am not sure about are Schott (may relate to Scotsman, but also be derived from the Germanic tribe of the Chattes [=Hessonians]), Altmann (Alemann, but also "old man), and Littmann (man form Lithuania/ Latvia, but also 'lütt'=little man). Any linguist here who can say whether they are other plausible roots for Spahn/ Spohn aside from "spanyard`?

For the professions: Müller (millers) were everywhere, but Becker/ Bäcker (baker), Fischer (fisher), Weber (weaver), Schneider (tailor), Glaser (glass maker), Töpfer (potter) and Wagner (wagoner) / Rademacher (wheel maker) show interesting regional variations.

[minionofmidas]

You're right, it's just not as ridiculously common as further west. I didn't look closely enough.

The concentration in the West I wouldn't call ridiculous, but an indicator of the strong local metal-processing tradition that places like the Bergische Land (Solingen, Remscheid) or the Siegerland are having.
Asides, the map is not weighted by population density, so with a relatively even name distribution, the more densely populated places will stand out against sparsely populated areas (and that is most of the East, especially the North-East).

You can switch over to "relative". (Though it doesn't really work on super-duper-common or actually rare names.)

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You don't say?

 

[politicus]

Would persons from Schleswig-Holstein have names ending in -sen?

Most of them, especially when  from the coast - just as the Dutch and the Danes.

Just look at the list in the link below, and you know what I mean ..

In addition to my previous post, here some links for those interested in further information:

a:) Name list with additional biographical background on 75 German colonists who settled in Nieuw Amsterdam before 1667;

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

P.S: If you are looking for a way to discern Schleswig-Holsteiner and Danes by last name, you can to some extent do it by looking at the paternal root. A Pedersen, e.g., is most likely Danish, while there is a good chance that a Petersen is from Schleswig (-Holstein). Same with Poulsen and Paulsen, Christensen and Christiansen. Bjoernsen/ Bjarnesen, Brodersen, Soerensen or Ingwersen would also rather be Danish names.
Variations of the ending, e.g. 'ssen' or 'tzen' are indicating a Dutch name, though they are not completely uncommon in Schleswig-Holstein as well. A typical Dutch name that is rarely found in Schleswig-Holstein is Fransen / Franssen / Frantzen.

You cant really put it like that since the population in most of Schleswig was (pre-WW2) mostly of Danish descent. Prior to the 1800-1840 language change Danish dialects where spoken in most of present German Schleswig (Sudschleswig). Scleswig-Holsteiner as a German identity is a 19th century nationalist idea and before that the population saw no discrepancy between their Danish dialect and identifyng as Sleswickers.
The exceptions being on the West coast and islands, where people where of Frisian descent and the far south where the German population is either dating from the early Middle Ages or on the peninsula Schwanzen/Svansen is from the late 13th or 14th century.

So basically the old -sen names are mostly Danish names from Sleswick or if they have a Frisian root like Bahnsen or Feddersen, they are Frisian.

Christiansen and Petersen are typical Danish names and claiming they should be an indication of German descent is incorrect. Paulsen and Fransen are also widely used in Denmark and are in most cases just spelling variations.

[politicus]

The ethnically Danish population in central and northern Sleswick had a higher emigration ratio than ethnic Germans after 1864, as is often the case with ethnic minorities in an occupied territory, so not all S-H emigrants 1864-1920 can be considered German.

Not sure about that. According to the map from my quote above, the highest emigration rate between 1867 and 1885 was from Dithmarschen (13.2% of total population), followed by Tonder (11.5%), Plön (7.8%) and Oldenburg (7.8%).  Apenrade was 7%, as was Husum. I think it is fair to say that for a number of reasons (seafaring tradition, pressure/ land losses from floods, etc.), the whole west coast had elevated emigration rates. And the quasi-feudal situation in rural East Holstein was apparently leading to higher emigration rates, than pressure on the Danish minority in Apenrade, Hadersleben or Sonderburg. That's not to say that it wasn't primarily ethnic Danes who left Husum - we will never know. What is known is that the advertising brochures for emigration that were circulating there were in German.

I was talking about Sleswick here, comparing the German speaking and the minority population in the province. Tønder/Tonder had a large Danish and some Frisian population. Åbenrå/Apenrade mostly Danish. Husum mostly Frisian. It is always stated as a fact by Danish historians that the minority had a higher emigration rate and I doubt they would do that without proper sources, so its not a "we will never know" thing.

The population on the coast were bilingual or trilingual (South Jutlandic dialect, Low German dialect, North Frisian) and Standard German was a foreign language for all of them since the German speakers spoke Low German dialects, so the language of the brochures is not an indicator of their ethnicity. Standard German was just the common written language (learnt in school)

NB: Central Sleswick is incl. the central part of the west coast (what we call Mellemslesvig in Danish), not just the interior.

The population of Sleswick-Holstein and Lauenburg was around 40% of the total in the realm of Denmark prior to 1864, if you deduct ethnic Danes and Frisians from Sleswick and take into consideration that S-H was the wealthiest part of the realm (giving less incentive to emigrate) you are unlikely to get more than 25% "German" emigration from the Danish realm.

I don't think it is about "wealthy S_H" versus "poorer rest of Denmark"- Copenhagen or Odense were surely no less wealthy than were Altona, Wandsbek or Kiel. and will most likely have had equally low emigration rates (around 2%) as the latter. The main pattern should have been West Coast (high emigration) vs. rural Geest (considerable emigration) vs. urban centres (low emigration) - in Holstein as in Schleswig as in Jutland. As such, a ratio of 240k  Danish emigrants (1890 US census) to 100-120 k Schleswig-Holstein emigrants is quite in line with overall population ratios and as such plausible.

Jutland was much poorer than Sleswick and Holstein, also if you compare the towns. The difference is smaller between the Islands and S-H, but still as a general rule the two duchies were more developed and wealthier (but of course that is on average with large variations). Odense and Copenhagen would have had large numbers of dirt poor proletarians.
 
I am not talking about the distribution between Denmark and Sleswick-Holstein, but between ethnic Danes (and ethnic Frisians for that matter) and ethnic Germans within the Danish realm. So a share of 25% "Germans" as in German speakers is a reasonable estimate. 1890 estimates are of little use determinig pre-1864 emigration patterns. Too many people arriving in the intermidiate periode.

The Danish government never needed, nor expected, mass emigration to the Danish West Indian Islands (or any other of its small tropical colonies, which were sold by 1850 anyway) and neither did it need emigration to the North Atlantic colonies.

Let me draw your attention to the "General-Patent wieder die Emigrationes nach den fremden Colonien in America" issued by the Danish King Frederik V on August 24, 1753.
I concede that this "patent" was most likely abolished long before the time in question here, but never say never .

I will say never, the mid 18th century is a completely different kettle of fish and is irrelevant for the era we are talking about here. Prior to the Napoleonic Wars Denmark-Norway was a medium power with quite different aspirations.

[Franknburger]

Would persons from Schleswig-Holstein have names ending in -sen?

Most of them, especially when  from the coast - just as the Dutch and the Danes.

Just look at the list in the link below, and you know what I mean ..

In addition to my previous post, here some links for those interested in further information:

a:) Name list with additional biographical background on 75 German colonists who settled in Nieuw Amsterdam before 1667;

Or check out this nice mapping tool on the geographic distribution of last names in Germany (check out Carstensen, Hansen, Hinrichsen, Jansen,  Janzen, Johannsen and Petersen).

You cant really put it like that since the population in most of Schleswig was (pre-WW2) mostly of Danish descent. Prior to the 1800-1840 language change Danish dialects where spoken in most of present German Schleswig (Sudschleswig). Scleswig-Holsteiner as a German identity is a 19th century nationalist idea and before that the population saw no discrepancy between their Danish dialect and identifyng as Sleswickers.
The exceptions being on the West coast and islands, where people where of Frisian descent and the far south where the German population is either dating from the early Middle Ages or on the peninsula Schwanzen/Svansen is from the late 13th or 14th century.

So basically the old -sen names are mostly Danish names from Sleswick or if they have a Frisian root like Bahnsen or Feddersen, they are Frisian.

Christiansen and Petersen are typical Danish names and claiming they should be an indication of German descent is incorrect. Paulsen and Fransen are also widely used in Denmark and are in most cases just spelling variations.

Names on -sen are popular along the whole North Sea coast, down from the Flemish part of Belgium up to Norway. If you include the Swedish '-son', you may say that this type of name-building is typical for all Germanic languages (as, by the way, also for many Slavonic languages or, e.g. Georgian [-schwili means 'son']). The German name maps indicate indeed that such names are especially widespread across Frisia, but they are in no way limited to "ethnic" Danes or Frisians. My wife, e.g. is a Janzen, here ancestors have as long as my father-in-law remembers been living in a small village just west of Lübeck, while my Flemish cousin-in-law is a Janssen.

The language thing is very interesting and something I would like to learn more about. My impression has always been that the whole north-sea coast has traditionally been a continuum, where various West-Germanic dialects, including Flemish, Dutch, Dutch Low Saxon, Low German(Plattdeutsch) in its several variations (East Frisian, Hamburgisch, Holsteinisch) , Anglo-Frisian, Schleswigsch, South Jutlandic, North Jutlandic and Norwegian (probably again various dialects)gradually blended from one into the next one without clearly discernible borders.  Apparently, during medieval times they were close enough to each other that, e.g., Simon van Utrecht could become mayor of Hamburg, or Peter Minuit (born west of Hamburg to Flemish parents) could serve as Governor of Nieuw Amsterdam and as well of New Sweden.  Transmitted by the Hanseatic League, Lübeck Low German served as lingua franca for most of Northern Europe.

During the 18th century, Denmark was at least bi-lingual (farmers from my village in Holstein successfully went to the Copenhagen court against a nearby nobleman who had illegally taken over some village lands), with both German and Danish serving as official languages. Since I could not find any Danish-language reference to the Royal anti emigration patent I mentioned in my earlier post, it may even be that German was the only official language at the Danish Royal Court (I would be grateful if you could clarify this point). In any case, from our village chronicle I have gained the impression that between mid-18th and early 19th century, Denmark was anything but a bad country to live in (rural education seems to have been pretty good as well), and neither Holsteiners nor Schleswigers had much reason to look for alternatives.

Somewhen, somehow, this linguistic continuum broke up (again something I am eager to learn more about), which ultimately forced people to decide on one language and, with it, on their nationality. They did so in the 1920 referendum (see map below), and that is the best source on national self-identification we have. I think we should stick to that rather than entering a linguistic discussion on whether Anglian (east of Schlewig town), Frisian, or South-Jutlandic are languages of their own, or Low German, or Danish dialects (most likely, they are all three at the same time, in the above sense of the linguistic continuum). 



As to individual last names, I hope you have read my text correctly (see passages marked in bold). Otherwise, I appreciate your amendments on name occurrence in Denmark, which I am not to knowledgeable about.

P.S: If you are looking for a way to discern Schleswig-Holsteiner and Danes by last name, you can to some extent do it by looking at the paternal root. A Pedersen, e.g., is most likely Danish, while there is a good chance that a Petersen is from Schleswig (-Holstein). Same with Poulsen and Paulsen, Christensen and Christiansen. Bjoernsen/ Bjarnesen, Brodersen, Soerensen or Ingwersen would also rather be Danish names.
Variations of the ending, e.g. 'ssen' or 'tzen' are indicating a Dutch name, though they are not completely uncommon in Schleswig-Holstein as well. A typical Dutch name that is rarely found in Schleswig-Holstein is Fransen / Franssen / Frantzen.

[politicus]

The mainland Scandinavian languages are basically pidgin languages by people who have spoken Old Norse languages but tried to sell their herring to Low Germanic people. On level of grammar there are big differences (in declination) that are easy to recognize, but wortschatz
is very similar.

Not quite sure if you are serious, but since there are no smileys:

They are far from pidgin languages. Only 30-35% of the vocabulary is of German origin. Even in Danish the Nordic words are the majority and this number is slightly higher in Swedish and Norwegian. So heavily influenced by Low German in the late middle ages, but thats it. English has lots of French words without being a French pidgin.

[politicus]

You cant really put it like that since the population in most of Schleswig was (pre-WW2) mostly of Danish descent. Prior to the 1800-1840 language change Danish dialects where spoken in most of present German Schleswig (Sudschleswig). Schleswig-Holsteiner as a German identity is a 19th century nationalist idea and before that the population saw no discrepancy between their Danish dialect and identifyng as Sleswickers.
The exceptions being on the West coast and islands, where people where of Frisian descent and the far south where the German population is either dating from the early Middle Ages or on the peninsula Schwanzen/Svansen is from the late 13th or 14th century.

So basically the old -sen names are mostly Danish names from Sleswick or if they have a Frisian root like Bahnsen or Feddersen, they are Frisian.

Christiansen and Petersen are typical Danish names and claiming they should be an indication of German descent is incorrect. Paulsen and Fransen are also widely used in Denmark and are in most cases just spelling variations.

Names on -sen are popular along the whole North Sea coast, down from the Flemish part of Belgium up to Norway. If you include the Swedish '-son', you may say that this type of name-building is typical for all Germanic languages (as, by the way, also for many Slavonic languages or, e.g. Georgian [-schwili means 'son']). The German name maps indicate indeed that such names are especially widespread across Frisia, but they are in no way limited to "ethnic" Danes or Frisians. My wife, e.g. is a Janzen, here ancestors have as long as my father-in-law remembers been living in a small village just west of Lübeck, while my Flemish cousin-in-law is a Janssen.

Not limited to, but remember that there is a difference between -zen, -ssen and -sen. The old Low German patronym is mainly -s as in Peters, Carstens etc. Most single s -sen names in Sleswick are either Danish or Frisians using the Danish naming custom, which became dominant among Frisians. There are some exceptions, like Classen, and things get complicated because Danish naming practice also influenced parts of Holstein, but generally -sen is indicative of Danish or Frisian heritage.

The language thing is very interesting and something I would like to learn more about. My impression has always been that the whole north-sea coast has traditionally been a continuum, where various West-Germanic dialects, including Flemish, Dutch, Dutch Low Saxon, Low German(Plattdeutsch) in its several variations (East Frisian, Hamburgisch, Holsteinisch), Anglo-Frisian, Schleswigsch, South Jutlandic, North Jutlandic and Norwegian (probably again various dialects)gradually blended from one into the next one without clearly discernible borders.  Apparently, during medieval times they were close enough to each other that, e.g., Simon van Utrecht could become mayor of Hamburg, or Peter Minuit (born west of Hamburg to Flemish parents) could serve as Governor of Nieuw Amsterdam and as well of New Sweden.  Transmitted by the Hanseatic League, Lübeck Low German served as lingua franca for most of Northern Europe.

The continuum existed to a certain extent, but there was still a clear difference between (Nordic) Danish dialects and (West Germanic) dialects of Low German since the vocabulary is different.

During the 18th century, Denmark was at least bi-lingual (farmers from my village in Holstein successfully went to the Copenhagen court against a nearby nobleman who had illegally taken over some village lands), with both German and Danish serving as official languages. Since I could not find any Danish-language reference to the Royal anti emigration patent I mentioned in my earlier post, it may even be that German was the only official language at the Danish Royal Court (I would be grateful if you could clarify this point).

The Danish Realm was a conglomerate state consisting of several parts. Sleswick-Holstein was administered in German (originally Low German) through the German Chancellory, while Denmark and Norway was administered in Danish through the Danish Chancellory. The German Chancellory was in charge of foreign affairs (being the more cosmopolitic ones  ).
Low German was used as an administrative language in Denmark-Norway proper, but disappeared in the late 17th century, after that Danish was the official language in the two kingdoms.
Your proclamtion likely exists in both languages if it concerns people in both S-H and the kingdoms.

The Danish elite was bilingual (or trilingual incl. French) and Copenhagen craftsmen and merchants generally knew German as Copenhagen was about 25% German in the 18th century. The common people were not bilingual.

Somewhen, somehow, this linguistic continuum broke up (again something I am eager to learn more about), which ultimately forced people to decide on one language and, with it, on their nationality.

There was a nationalist mobilisation from both sides in the 1830s and 1840s dividing the population in the duchy of Sleswick along nationality. But this mobilization came largely after the Germanisation of the Angel peninsula 1800-1840 where the greater social prestige and economic usability of the German language got most of the population to change to Low German leaving only a lower class Danish speaking rump)

They did so in the 1920 referendum (see map below), and that is the best source on national self-identification we have.

Its a source of national identity in 1920! But not of the situation in the 19th century in which the Germanisation of Southern Sleswick happened. In 1800 the areas north of Schlei/Dannewerk/Eider line spoke either Danish or Frisian dialects with the exception of the Eidersted Peninsula that had changed to Low German around 1700. This line gradually moved up to near the present border during the 19th century, with a small enclave of Danish speakers in the central moors and some Frisian speakers, mainly on the islands. The language change also meant a nationality change for most people.

I think we should stick to that rather than entering a linguistic discussion on whether Anglian (east of Schlewig town), Frisian, or South-Jutlandic are languages of their own, or Low German, or Danish dialects (most likely, they are all three at the same time, in the above sense of the linguistic continuum).  

Its not realy soomething you can seriously discuss. Anglian and South Jutlandic are (or in the case of the extinct Anglian were) Danish dialects, North Frisian is a language. Thats recognized by both German and Danish linguists. Continuum doesnt mean that you cant classify dialects into languages, just that are some similarities between neighbouring dialects. The idea that languages are pure modern constructions without any basis in pre-modern distinctions is rubbish in most cases. Especially in an area like Sleswick as the difference between Nordic and West Germanic languages is the sharpest break among the Germanic languages.    

As to individual last names, I hope you have read my text correctly (see passages marked in bold). Otherwise, I appreciate your amendments on name occurrence in Denmark, which I am not to knowledgeable about.

Yeah, I would still say that since Sleswickers (descending from pre-1945 Sleswick families) are mostly of Danish descent the distinction between Sleswick surnames and Danish surnames is pointless unless we are talking about Frisian names, like Bahnsen, or the special South Jutlandic versions of Danish names like Asmussen/Jessen/Nissen for Rasmussen/Jensen/Nielsen.

I dont think you can talk about Schleswig-Holstein family names, since Holsteinian names are (Low) German and old Sleswick surnames (north of Danewerk) are Danish or Frisian with a few exceptions.
So there are two historically distinct naming traditions in the two old duchies. Of course the area south of Schlei-Danewerk-Eider is historically German (see the times I gave earlier) and is similar to Holstein regarding surnames, probably with Eidersted as an exception due to its post-medieval language shift.

[Franknburger]

The ethnically Danish population in central and northern Sleswick had a higher emigration ratio than ethnic Germans after 1864, as is often the case with ethnic minorities in an occupied territory, so not all S-H emigrants 1864-1920 can be considered German.

Not sure about that. According to the map from my quote above, the highest emigration rate between 1867 and 1885 was from Dithmarschen (13.2% of total population), followed by Tonder (11.5%), Plön (7.8%) and Oldenburg (7.8%).  Apenrade was 7%, as was Husum. I think it is fair to say that for a number of reasons (seafaring tradition, pressure/ land losses from floods, etc.), the whole west coast had elevated emigration rates. And the quasi-feudal situation in rural East Holstein was apparently leading to higher emigration rates, than pressure on the Danish minority in Apenrade, Hadersleben or Sonderburg. That's not to say that it wasn't primarily ethnic Danes who left Husum - we will never know.

I was talking about Sleswick here, comparing the German speaking and the minority population in the province. Tønder/Tonder had a large Danish and some Frisian population. Åbenrå/Apenrade mostly Danish. Husum mostly Frisian. It is always stated as a fact by Danish historians that the minority had a higher emigration rate and I doubt they would do that without proper sources, so its not a "we will never know" thing.

It is certainly right for North Schleswig that more Danes than Germans emigrated, they were anyway in majority there. Asides from that, as you can see in the map in my last post, the Germans were mostly urban, while Danes / Frisians dominated on the west coast and in the inland. This implies as well far higher non-German emigration rates (Flensburg, e.g., had a pretty low rate of below 3%). Again, I am not saying there were no ethnical / language discrimination reasons for emigration, but other socio-demographic factors give equally plausible explanations.

As to South-Schleswig, the referendum map indicates few self-identified Danes on the West Coast. They may have been numerous there once, but mostly left towards the USA after 1866, or those many West Coast emigrants were rather not identifying themselves as Danes. This again is speculation and guesswork.

BTW: Please don't 'danisize' the North Frisians. Those south of the border were and are Schleswig-Holsteiner, which in vast majority opted for Germany in the 1920 referendum, even across good parts of North Tonder.

As to Mellemsleswig - I could not find any translation of that term. Maybe you are referring to Eiderstedt, which in West Coast context had a quite low emigration rate of only 4.7%. The official German statistical breakdown of emigrants is by county.  Schleswig county were completely interior. The coastal counties were (north to south) Hadersleben (a tiny stretch north of Roemoe), Tonder (including Niebüll, the county was split half Danish / half German in 1920), Husum, Eiderstedt and Dithmarschen.

The population on the coast were bilingual or trilingual (South Jutlandic dialect, Low German dialect, North Frisian) and Standard German was a foreign language for all of them since the German speakers spoke Low German dialects, so the language of the brochures is not an indicator of their ethnicity. Standard German was just the common written language (learnt in school).

Correct, and as such a good point as concerns the brochure language. However, shouldn't that also mean that the Low German speakers had as much reason (or not) for emigration as the South Jutlandic speakers? Especially if you consider that all of Schleswig learnt German in school before 1866 (in fact, the Danish government's plan to shift the teaching language in Schleswig from German to Danish was a main reason for local unrest and the subsequent 1866 German-Danish war).[And I hope you don't want to imply that anybody not speaking High German at home was not German - that would have left late 19th century Germany with some 90% of foreign population, including most of Bavaria, Palatinate, the Rhineland or Lower Saxony.]

Jutland was much poorer than Sleswick and Holstein, also if you compare the towns. The difference is smaller between the Islands and S-H, but still as a general rule the two duchies were more developed and wealthier (but of course that is on average with large variations). Odense and Copenhagen would have had large numbers of dirt poor proletarians.

Interesting, I did not know that. I would have intuitively placed Ribe and Esbjerg at similar levels as Heide and Husum, Aalborg and Aarhus on a scale with Schleswig and Flensburg, etc. How come? Higher distances to cover in the lucrative cattle trade with Hamburg? Or is it because Jutland lacks an inland manufacturing belt of the Rendsburg/ Neumunster kind?

BTW - there were quite some  dirt poor proletarians in Altona and Wandsbek as well (Altona's population went up from 28,000 in 1840 to 67,000 in 1867)

1890 estimates are of little use determinig pre-1864 emigration patterns. Too many people arriving in the intermidiate periode.

Indeed. I would love to have the kind of breakdowns that are available for the later waves, especially 1870-1890, also for earlier emigration waves. German publications mention a first emigration wave from the West Coast after the 1825 flood - that emigration was most likely not restricted to Dithmarschen and North Frisia, but extended across the whole flood-affected coast up to Skagen. I have no idea what figures we are talking about here in total - hundreds, thousands, ten-thousands ?
The second emigration wave that is being reported was after the 1848-1851 Schleswig-Holstein uprising, and lasted until 1855. Neither have I so far found details on the absolute figures we are talking about, nor whether that emigration was rather political (48-ers, which would also have included liberal Danes), or ethnic, i.e primarily German / Frisian, or regional (Schleswig-Holstein vs. rest of Denmark) in its nature.

[Franknburger]

@ Politicus: Instead of five pages of mutual quotes, just a few comments on your latest post:

First of all, I really appreciate your knowledgeable and informative comments. I also now see better the angle you are coming from, so let me put down a few points where I feel we both misunderstood each other:

1.) I have referred to Schleswig in its current administrative definition, i.e the area north of the Eider / Kiel Canal, including Eckernförde / Schwansen, Rendsburg, and the western Kiel periphery. As you have made clear, you are referring only to South-Schleswig's northern half (Schlei-Dannewerk-Eider). In that sense, some of my comments on Schleswig are related to areas that you would call a part of Holstein.

2.) You are coming from a linguistic angle, which I appreciate a lot since I know much less than I would like to know in that field. However, across all of Germany - and Schleswig-Holstein is no exception in that respect - you have to be very careful with linguistic approaches to define ethnicity. Is Eastern Holstein Polish, because it used to be inhabited by the Obotrites, and most town names have Slavonic roots (Preetz, Plön, Eutin, Scharbeutz, Lübeck). Is the whole of Holstein Polish, because the leading families (Rantzau, Reventlow, etc.) tended to be Obotrite nobility? Surely not. They have long been germanised, partly by force, mostly out of free will or for their own economic advantage, and self-defined as German (person / city / leader).

So, to me, ancestry, roots, names is one thing - national identity another one. The first one is given, the second one self-defined. Hans-Andersen Krüger, e.g., had by all means a German name. That did not keep him from representing the Danish Party in the Reichstag from 1867 to 1881 (Sonderburg-Hadersleben electoral district). Karl Christensen (Apenrade-Flensburg) and Mathias Claudius Petersen (Tondern-Husum-Eiderstedt) were also members of the 1871-1975 Reichstag. Both should have been Danish according to your argumentation - but were running for the National Liberal Party. (for anybody to lazy busy to read the link - Bismarck's main parliamentary support, upper middle-class, and the "national" should be self-explaining for a Bismarck supporting party). In other words - you just can't use family names in Schleswig-Holstein to determine ethnicity, neither the Slavonic (Ranzau), nor the Standard German, nor the Frisian or Danish ones!

I would like to know a bit more about Anglian. In the museum in Haithabu, I saw comparisons of Old Saxon vs. Old Anglian vs. Old Danish (approx. 9th-11th century), which made me feel Old Anglian to be pretty much in-between the other two. The fact that the British could quite well distinguish Saxons, Angels and Danes  is also rather pointing at a distinct language than a mere Danish dialect. Now, Old Anglian is most likely not what was spoken in Angeln in the 19th century before it got extinct, but given the location, some of the 'bridge character' between Low Saxon (Holsteiner Platt) and Danish should have remained.

----
P.S: I have come across this interesting article (in German) about the SPD's relation to the Danes in Schleswig-Holstein in the late 19th century. A few takeaways:

There has in fact been quite some oppression in the 1870s - not against Danes in general, but against those that were politically active and protesting German rule. Otherwise, discrimination rather picked up in the 1890s (Germanisation of schools, etc.), after the emigration peak. The prime motivation for a quite substantial Danish emigration from Schleswig-Holstein in the 1870s / 1880s was avoiding being drafted for the German army (pretty understandable motivation). Such emigration, however, will most likely not have taken place through German ports, which surely would have checked for army service status before allowing passage.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Found this resource: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Germany_Emigration_and_Immigration

It looks like German emigrants left during four main waves (1683-1820, 1820-1871, 1871-1914, and 1914-1945). My paternal ancestors from Germany (and Switzerland and Luxembourg) came to America towards the end of the second wave (mid-1800s) and the beginning of the third wave (late 1800s).

My surname is French, but most of my dad's family is German. The reason? The ancestor that had the surname came from Alsace.

EDIT: I see Franknburger already posted the link I just posted. Oh well.

[Franknburger]

Found this resource: https://familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/Germany_Emigration_and_Immigration

It looks like German emigrants left during four main waves (1683-1820, 1820-1871, 1871-1914, and 1914-1945). My paternal ancestors from Germany (and Switzerland and Luxembourg) came to America towards the end of the second wave (mid-1800s) and the beginning of the third wave (late 1800s).

My surname is French, but most of my dad's family is German. The reason? The ancestor that had the surname came from Alsace.

EDIT: I see Franknburger already posted the link I just posted. Oh well.

In fact, I did not post the link. It is a pretty good source, especially for those not speaking German.
For a general overview, the Wikipedia article on German Americans is good and quite detailed as regards specific regions of origin within Germany, and settlement clusters within the USA. It has, however, some gaps and omissions, including neglecting the early emigration via Nieuw Amsterdam/ New Sweden, and some major sources of origin such as Schleswig-Holstein and the Oldenburger Münsterland.

Some specific German settlements in the USA have been discussed in the following threads:

Ohio, especially north-western Ohio: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=140992.0

Perry, IN: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=169054.0

[I just realise that those active here have also been active in the a/m threads, but a few occasional readers may have overlooked them ..]

[minionofmidas]

The mainland Scandinavian languages are basically pidgin languages by people who have spoken Old Norse languages but tried to sell their herring to Low Germanic people. On level of grammar there are big differences (in declination) that are easy to recognize, but wortschatz
is very similar.

Not quite sure if you are serious, but since there are no smileys:

They are far from pidgin languages. Only 30-35% of the vocabulary is of German origin. Even in Danish the Nordic words are the majority and this number is slightly higher in Swedish and Norwegian. So heavily influenced by Low German in the late middle ages, but thats it. English has lots of French words without being a French pidgin.

English is very much a French - Anglosaxon(-and some Norse) pidgin creole, actually. With a lot of the typical grammatical features.