Do "nice guys finish last"?

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Smug jocks and academic puritans. This is like... the best of both worlds up in here.

[minionofmidas]

In many things, yes. 

Including in bed.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

In many things, yes. 

Including in bed.

Thanks, Quick Draw. 

[politicus]

More true in the US than elsewhere?

It is probably less valid in the US than in autocracies, military dictatorships, and in the various kingdoms and empires which existed before the US, but to some extent it is also true in the US.

It was sort of implied that we are talking about modern democracies. Not the cruel faith awaiting the losers of court intrigues in Byzans.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Smug jocks and academic puritans. This is like... the best of both worlds up in here.

I guess I'm the academic puritan?

[angus]

It was sort of implied that we are talking about modern democracies. Not the cruel faith awaiting the losers of court intrigues in Byzans.

The quote has long been attributed to baseball player/manager Leo Durocher of the Brooklyn Dodgers.  To the extent that he used it to motivate the team, it was valid.  According to sportswriter Frank Graham, this is actually what he said:

“Nice guys! Look over there. Do you know a nicer guy than Mel Ott? Or any of the other Giants? Why, they’re the nicest guys in the world! And where are they? In seventh place! Nice guys! I’m not a nice guy – and I’m in first place.  The nice guys are all over there, in seventh place.”
 
It turns out to apply more broadly, as you have probably noticed.  In modern democracies the validity of the statement probably tracks well with HDI or PPP, being more valid in, say, Greece and Spain, and less valid in Norway and the US.  The world's richest man, for example, is a Mexican named Carlos Helu.  Is he a nice guy?  To those critics who point out that he amassed a fortune in a country where average per capita income does not surpass $14,500 a year, and nearly 17% of the population lives in poverty, he is a monopolist.  The world's second richest man is an American named Bill Gates.  Is he a nice guy?  To the people whose ideas he rips off, he's a thief, but people like Bono and Gordon Brown, who follow his foundation work, he's a philanthropist.

Sometimes nice guys finish first, though.  It only took Ghandi till 1947 to get rid of the British.  It took Ho Chi Minh until 1954 to get rid of the French.  You can always find counterexamples.

[Kitteh]

Confidence helps social interactions with people of all genders. Is that really controversial?

[Хahar 🤔]

You people (angus excepted) do realize this is a baseball thing, yes?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

You people (angus excepted) do realize this is a baseball thing, yes?

This is also worth mentioning.

[politicus]

You people (angus excepted) do realize this is a baseball thing, yes?

This is also worth mentioning.

I do, but its origin in baseball is rather irrelevant today.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You people (angus excepted) do realize this is a baseball thing, yes?

This is also worth mentioning.

I do, but its origin in baseball is rather irrelevant today.

Xahar is just touchy because his Giants were in 7th place. 

[Хahar 🤔]

You people (angus excepted) do realize this is a baseball thing, yes?

This is also worth mentioning.

I do, but its origin in baseball is rather irrelevant today.

Xahar is just touchy because his Giants were in 7th place. 

Fortunately they managed to turn things around pretty fast, although it's probably meaningful that Leo Durocher was their manager when they won the pennant in 1951 and 1954.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Confidence helps social interactions with people of all genders. Is that really controversial?

Of course not. That's not the point I was trying to make.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Nice (as in, actually nice) guys don't finish last.

Passive-aggressive, insecure, misogynistic, entitled,pretending-to-be-nice-but-are-really-not guys? They never "finish" (whatever that means), and rightly so.

But Xahar's right. This is a baseball thing. Carry on.

[memphis]

Confidence helps social interactions with people of all genders. Is that really controversial?

Excessive confidence is not a character trait that most men go looking for on a date. Mouthy women are no fun at all. 

[Oakvale]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

Eh, I think confidence is pretty much universally considered an attractive trait. I'd be comfortable saying that all women find confidence attractive as a general, sweeping statement.

Anyway I agree with a few other posts in this thread - the Nice Guy syndrome is a bit of a problem that creates passive-aggressive misogynistic assholes who are outraged that women don't want to sleep with them. I'm thinking of Snowstalker talking about the problem of "females" seeking out "jerks" as partners. That is, of course, not the same as being a nice person... which, shockingly, women can find attractive.

[Peter the Lefty]

Usually.  With both guys and girls, it would seem.

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

Eh, I think confidence is pretty much universally considered an attractive trait. I'd be comfortable saying that all women find confidence attractive as a general, sweeping statement.

As our resident sexist Memphis has illustrated, it's a bit more complicated than that. The dominant norm is still assertive man/submissive woman, and those who defy this norm, guys and girls alike, are often disadvantaged.

Of course, extreme insecurity is a turnoff regardless of gender. So is extreme arrogance. But the point is that society doesn't hold men and women to the same standard regarding what the "proper" level of confidence is.

[opebo]

People are only 'nice' due to real disadvantages - typically class origin disadvantages and genetic disadvantages.  So, you can't really blame the niceness for losing - it is not a causative factors but merely a symptom of being subjected.

Conversely, women don't necessarily actually prefer an 'asshole' in some way purely focused on the rudeness - no, this is just a valuable and uselful shorthand signifyer for 'rich and/or genetically superior'. 

This leaves us the interesting possiblity that the poor man (or ugly man) could, by utilizing this behavior shorthand for privilege, gain at least temporarily the advantages! 

Have any of you impecunious and humpbacked losers ever pulled off this pretense successfully?  I must confess I have never even tried such a daring con!

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

People are only 'nice' due to real disadvantages - typically class origin disadvantages and genetic disadvantages.  So, you can't really blame the niceness for losing - it is not a causative factors but merely a symptom of being subjected.

Conversely, women don't necessarily actually prefer an 'asshole' in some way purely focused on the rudeness - no, this is just a valuable and uselful shorthand signifyer for 'rich and/or genetically superior'. 

This leaves us the interesting possiblity that the poor man (or ugly man) could, by utilizing this behavior shorthand for privilege, gain at least temporarily the advantages! 

Have any of you impecunious and humpbacked losers ever pulled off this pretense successfully?  I must confess I have never even tried such a daring con!

First off.  LMAO.  Second, they try it all the time.  Seems to only work on girls who are also poors but think that they are riches.  You can see why.

[Person Man]

In many things, yes. 

If by 'nice', you mean desperate.

[opebo]

Smug jocks and academic puritans. This is like... the best of both worlds up in here.

Yes, pretty ugly stuff Hagrid, I agree.  I'd like to guillotine them all.

[Kitteh]

Have any of you impecunious and humpbacked losers ever pulled off this pretense successfully?

If you ask Atlas any question in the form of "Have any of you ever [something related to girls]?" the answer is always going to be no. Especially if you add the qualifier "successfully" at the end.

[opebo]

Have any of you impecunious and humpbacked losers ever pulled off this pretense successfully?

If you ask Atlas any question in the form of "Have any of you ever [something related to girls]?" the answer is always going to be no. Especially if you add the qualifier "successfully" at the end.

Well you're quite right, there's no doubt I'm asking the wrong group, but I'm just curious in general if such subterfuges can work 'in life'.  I guess the obvious answer is - pretty damned rarely, if at all.

[minionofmidas]

This works all the time in real life, Opebo. Just not ever with the kind of girls you'd like it to work on.