Do "nice guys finish last"?

[Antonio the Sixth]

People who:
- Act nice with girls just to get laid.
- Think being "just friends" with a girl is a bad thing.
- Blame "women"'s stupidity for their lack of success.

...are not nice. They are disgusting assholes.

On the other hand, after going through a few websites which talk about the "nice guy syndrome" (see this for example), I feel like they tend to confuse these kind of guys along with people (like me) who mean well but are just shy and insecure - and awkwardly try to do their best to be appreciated. I think I'm a "nice guy". But I'm not an entitled bastard. I'm not a crypto-mysogynist. I value friendship a lot.

I don't want to be reduced to a stereotype or be given hidden intentions I don't have. And I think feminists should more than anyone else be distrustful of stereotypes, regardless of who they regard.

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

True, but most of those individuals like confidence.

Maybe, but that's not a sufficient reason to make assumption on people based on their chromosomes.

How would you judge me if I started a sentence with "all the blacks..."?

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

True, but most of those individuals like confidence.

Maybe, but that's not a sufficient reason to make assumption on people based on their chromosomes.

How would you judge me if I started a sentence with "all the blacks..."?

I prefer not to judge and you shouldn't judge Hokey for a colloquial expression.  For example, I'd stand by a phrase that said "all teenagers are a pain in the ass".....because they are. 

I'm not really judging Hockey either. He probably means well. But these "colloquial expressions" have to be called out for what they are: bigotry. Often unconscious bigotry, but bigotry nonetheless.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have my pet peeves, like everybody.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ok, Tony, 99.999999999% of females I've met like confidence.  

Statistics pulled out of one's ass are then next step. Not a huge improvement, but still an improvement.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ok, Tony, 99.999999999% of females I've met like confidence. 

Statistics pulled out of one's ass are then next step. Not a huge improvement, but still an improvement.

Bolded, recolored, underlined, and resized.  Have a brief relaxation, Tony.

Apologies for not noticing that bit. This certainly makes your case much better (though in this case your post implies that you have met more than 100 billion women... which I somehow doubt ).

[Antonio the Sixth]

As politicus' experiment here has established, this is a a theory seriously debated...among guys. 

My initial post was actually directed at DRJ more than anyone else (as the main representative of nice guy-bashers). I obviously don't think that "nice guys finish last" (what a stupid idea), but what I'm concerned with is the association of the term "nice guy" with a series of unfavorable and unfair stereotypes.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Smug jocks and academic puritans. This is like... the best of both worlds up in here.

I guess I'm the academic puritan?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Confidence helps social interactions with people of all genders. Is that really controversial?

Of course not. That's not the point I was trying to make.

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

Eh, I think confidence is pretty much universally considered an attractive trait. I'd be comfortable saying that all women find confidence attractive as a general, sweeping statement.

As our resident sexist Memphis has illustrated, it's a bit more complicated than that. The dominant norm is still assertive man/submissive woman, and those who defy this norm, guys and girls alike, are often disadvantaged.

Of course, extreme insecurity is a turnoff regardless of gender. So is extreme arrogance. But the point is that society doesn't hold men and women to the same standard regarding what the "proper" level of confidence is.

[Antonio the Sixth]

All women (notice I said "women", not "girls") like confidence.

There is no such a thing as "all women". There are only individuals.

Eh, I think confidence is pretty much universally considered an attractive trait. I'd be comfortable saying that all women find confidence attractive as a general, sweeping statement.

As our resident sexist Memphis has illustrated, it's a bit more complicated than that. The dominant norm is still assertive man/submissive woman, and those who defy this norm, guys and girls alike, are often disadvantaged.

Of course, extreme insecurity is a turnoff regardless of gender. So is extreme arrogance. But the point is that society doesn't hold men and women to the same standard regarding what the "proper" level of confidence is.

Here is what I was talking about, FTR. http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/12/but-why-do-some-women-go-for-aholes/

[Antonio the Sixth]

This thread is just lovely. Aside form the last page which seems to be nearly of substance, this thread is largely comprised of people calling each other sexist and so on. God Bless America (and all the other countries these posters hail from). I guess frustration with not getting a job makes you a communist, and being annoyed at one's priest from time to time is indicative of atheism.

I agree and since I pretty much knew that certain posters would reveal certain less flattering sides of their personality in this thread you might say that my little experiment wasn't really all that nice to begin with.

Honestly, I'm positively surprised. There hasn't been nearly as much sexism in this thread as one would expect considering the forum's past feats. Of course, there are still the usual generalizations...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Can we have a discussion about this topic that doesn't either fall into sexist tropes or is unfairly dismissive of the argument? I think differentiated gender expectations with regard to assertiveness in romantic relationships are a serious problem for men and women alike.