Christie to sign ban on gay conversion therapy, says homosexuality is not a sin

[memphis]

Speaking very anectodotally as an American Jew with ultra-Orthodox relatives, most Jews in America are not particularly observant. It's very much an ethnic identity, but as far as keeping kosher and all the rest, it's far too much hassle. Only the very, very serious do. Christianity doesn't ask as much. All you have to do is believe, and maybe go to church for an hour on Sunday. It's a much easier thing to get sucked into. And it seems to stunt intellectual growth. How many Nobel Prize winners are devout Christians. They've been told science is fatally flawed from a young age and they totally close their minds to it. Seeing young children instructed in religion is a very sad thing. 

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

what is it about Christianity as a faith in America that either collectively affirms negative views or attracts those with negative views to it?

Many Christian churches base their theology on self-loathing. They see man as an imperfect creature who because of his sins is unworthy of God's love. They see in the message of Jesus a path for obtaining that love, but they are scared of falling off the path and thus losing God's love. In order to stay on the path, they feel the need to liberate themselves from free will and submit to God's perfect will. Their theology is based on the fear that God will not love them.  Of course for many of them, they see the path being a fairly easy one, acknowledge Jesus as God, and presto-change-o they are saved.  They fail to see that Jesus' path had far more to do with goodliness than godliness.

By contrast, Judaism bases itself not on the story of Adam, but that of Abraham.  They have a covenant with God and thus can be assured of God's love, tho it is often tough love.  So it isn't as prone to self-loathing as Christianity sometimes can be.

Incidentally, I suspect the above explains in part why creationism is so popular among Evangelicals.  If your theology is based upon the premise that man's inherent sinfulness makes him unworthy of God's perfect love, you need there to have been a real Garden of Eden to explain how there came to be a perfect God and imperfect man.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Religion, by definition, is idiotic psychological abuse. We're all sinners in the hands of an angry God.

Not all religion is as obsessed with sin and rage as the Fundamentalists tend to be.

The emphasis does vary, but isn't a need for salvation due to man being fundamentally broken universal? I'm thinking more of Western religion, of course. I don't think the word religion applies to lot of Eastern thought.

Somewhat odd and Orientalist but admittedly common dismissal of 'Eastern thought' aside (I understand it's not meant to be dismissive--if anything it could probably be classified as a compliment coming from you--but it's still a dismissal from consideration in the context of religion-as-defined-by-memphis), I'm having a hard time seeing how the idea that man needs salvation due to being fundamentally broken is either more 'idiotic' than the alternative or automatically entails popular-conceptions-of-the-First-Great-Awakening-style fire and brimstone.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Good move, regardless of his motivations. By 2016 there will be plenty of time to "walk it back." I think he's probably more concerned with shoring up a now almost certain re-election.

There's no way to show efficacy if a practice is banned.  The thing about these types of laws, they don't just ban methods of therapy, some of which are abusive.  They ban aims of therapy - which comes awfully close to the government inserting itself in between the therapist-patient relationship. If the standard is the government is going to ban anything that hasn't been proven to be effective, then the practice of clinical psychology is going to be severely limited.

Like with shock "therapy," lobotomies, and other quasi Medieval practices, right?! Yeah, man, why not!?

The fact that you assume ECT is or should be illegal, or that lobotomies have any connection with anything Medieval, is a perfect demonstration as to why the role of politics should be limited in this area. 

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

Extrapolate?

[Small Business Owner of Any Repute]

A GQR poll (I know, I know) puts support for conversion therapy at only 24%.

http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2011/07/poll-mere-24-support-for-ex-gay-therapy-still-prob-more-than-scientific-community-gives-it.html

[King]

A GQR poll (I know, I know) puts support for conversion therapy at only 24%.

http://www.goodasyou.org/good_as_you/2011/07/poll-mere-24-support-for-ex-gay-therapy-still-prob-more-than-scientific-community-gives-it.html

24% is probably still a majority of Republican primary voters, which is the glaring flaw of our two party primary system.

[Torie]

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If the above makes one sad, one wonders what else makes the individual sad, and whether such a reaction is a leading indicator of just being personally miserable about one's own life, and life in general.
I have no idea if "devout Christians" are rarely Nobel prize winners, but even if true, that does not mean that many do not make great contributions to our society in other ways.  And probably a "devout Christian" such as TJ would probably make a better scientist than about 98% of the forumites. Heck, he is taking hard science/mathematics classes of some sort. Devotion to Christianity does not make one a closed minded idiot (I doubt there is even a positive correlation of any statistical significance), and it kind of offends me that many people make that assumption.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

Extrapolate?

You know his posting history... that should be enough.

[Beet]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If the above makes one sad, one wonders what else makes the individual sad, and whether such a reaction is a leading indicator of just being personally miserable about one's own life, and life in general.
I have no idea if "devout Christians" are rarely Nobel prize winners, but even if true, that does not mean that many do not make great contributions to our society in other ways.  And probably a "devout Christian" such as TJ would probably make a better scientist than about 98% if the forumites. Heck, he is taking hard science/mathematics classes of some sort. Devotion to Christianity does not make one a closed minded idiot (I doubt there is even a positive correlation of any statistical significance), and it kind of offends me that many people make that assumption.

Belief in God can actually be pro-science in this way: If you do not believe in God, then you are likely to seek meaning exclusively within yourself or in relations with other human beings. Confucianism can be interpreted in this way. Family and the Emperor (including ancestors, etc.) take the place of God, and the purpose of education is to enable the individual to fulfill his or her duties.

However, if you believe in an external God, then it requires you to think outside of the human world into the philosophical realm to determine God's nature. You cannot look within. And in trying to determine God's nature you inadvertently are forced to deal with metaphysics, astronomy, and science.

[7,052,770]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

I hope you're right...

[publicunofficial]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

Somedays I hope the rest of the GOP come around to your ways of thinking. It would make the Democrat's job a whole lot easier.

[publicunofficial]

Either Christie challenges Mendedez in 2016, or he just retires...

Why say that?

he just destroyed his chances at winning a Presidential primary

I like him. He'll be alright. My guys always seem to win the primary. Maybe I'm good luck.

Can I just point out how amazed I am that barfbag is a Christie supporter?

[angus]

Christie, you're exactly right on this one.  Credit where it is due.

In the sense that he perceives the direction of the winds?  He's probably pretty good at that.  He got himself elected to the office of Governor, after all.

[barfbag]

Either Christie challenges Mendedez in 2016, or he just retires...

Why say that?

he just destroyed his chances at winning a Presidential primary

I like him. He'll be alright. My guys always seem to win the primary. Maybe I'm good luck.

Can I just point out how amazed I am that barfbag is a Christie supporter?

Lol how so?

[publicunofficial]

Either Christie challenges Mendedez in 2016, or he just retires...

Why say that?

he just destroyed his chances at winning a Presidential primary

I like him. He'll be alright. My guys always seem to win the primary. Maybe I'm good luck.

Can I just point out how amazed I am that barfbag is a Christie supporter?

Lol how so?

Because Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, and many other politicians seem more your bag.

[Peter the Lefty]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

[DC Al Fine]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

noun=/=verb

[Peter the Lefty]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

noun=/=verb

?

[DC Al Fine]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

noun=/=verb

?

When CTRattlesnake, said "stop banning things" I assume he meant objects or substances, not actions. The libertarian view is that people, not objects do bad things and that actions should be outlawed, not simple objects. Your rebuttal took horrendous actions and equated them with objects that, while dangerous, have no volition of their own. This turns CTRattlesnake's argument into a caricature.

[ElectionsGuy]

He's wrong. Simple as that. His chances for the GOP nod are as good as dead with this.

I don't think his chances are dead, this is still three years off and all of this could be forget for all we know. Of course conservatives that I listen to on talk radio call him a liberal, RINO, etc. so it'll be interesting. I'm not a particularly big fan myself (especially after that libertarian/anti-Paul comment) but right now he seems like the strongest candidate.

[Peter the Lefty]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

noun=/=verb

?

When CTRattlesnake, said "stop banning things" I assume he meant objects or substances, not actions. The libertarian view is that people, not objects do bad things and that actions should be outlawed, not simple objects. Your rebuttal took horrendous actions and equated them with objects that, while dangerous, have no volition of their own. This turns CTRattlesnake's argument into a caricature.

He was referring to gay conversion therapy, as one could guess from the thread's subject.  Trying to convert a gay kid into being straight (and psychologically abusing him/her as part of the procedure) is an action. 

[DC Al Fine]

Gay conversion therapy is a moronic idea.


Doesn't mean we have to go ban it. Not sure why people seem to think that just because they disagree with something means that they have to go ahead and legislate their ideas to the rest of the state/country.


Stop banning things.

Oh yes.  We may not agree with spousal abuse, but why the hell ban it?  Same with assaulting your children.  And you know what, let's legalize homicide, because gay conversion therapy does literally kill kids who are forced to endure it by their parents.  The psychological torture drives tons of them to suicide.  I know fellow gays who have to endure it, and it's horrific what they have to go through.  If adults want to, that's their f[inks]ed up decision.  But teenagers don't have a choice if they have religious fundamentalist parents. 

noun=/=verb

?

When CTRattlesnake, said "stop banning things" I assume he meant objects or substances, not actions. The libertarian view is that people, not objects do bad things and that actions should be outlawed, not simple objects. Your rebuttal took horrendous actions and equated them with objects that, while dangerous, have no volition of their own. This turns CTRattlesnake's argument into a caricature.

He was referring to gay conversion therapy, as one could guess from the thread's subject.  Trying to convert a gay kid into being straight (and psychologically abusing him/her as part of the procedure) is an action. 

This isn't the gun control thread apparently... Sorry. Carry on.

[barfbag]

Either Christie challenges Mendedez in 2016, or he just retires...

Why say that?

he just destroyed his chances at winning a Presidential primary

I like him. He'll be alright. My guys always seem to win the primary. Maybe I'm good luck.

Can I just point out how amazed I am that barfbag is a Christie supporter?

Lol how so?

Because Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum, Rick Perry, and many other politicians seem more your bag.

I think I'm pretty moderate on the issues.