Canada deports Holocaust denier to Germany to be arrested

[AuH2O]

Let me know when Zundel gets out of jail. He has physically hurt how many people? zero. And he'll be in jail for life.

And you know this based on what? Your assumption that Zündel will "be in jail for life" has to be based on a precedence (unless you´re capable of clairvoyance). And this means that it has happened before. So, again, name a person who was sentenced to life for "questioning the government on any policy".

Article 5, section 2 of Germany's "Basic Law" says that free speech can be restricted insofar as it inhibits another individual's "personal respect." Sections 185, 189, and 194 of the Criminal Code prohibit the "defamation" of deceased persons, which in theory means you cannot speak critically about any historical figure, because they are dead (though these are used mainly to defend dead Jews, not dead Germans).

Section 130 of the Criminal Code also prohibits "incitement," which is widely used to prosecute people for their beliefs. Incitement does not require any intent or possibility of violence, as it does in the US (where actually the debate is between an immediate threat and a likely threat of violence)-- all that is required is a breach of "human dignity," which leftist judges can use against people that criticize immigration.

But where exactly is the part that states that people can be sentenced to life for "questioning the government on any policy"?

In addition you could name a person who was jailed because he criticized immigration policy.

I can't read German, but these guys should be able to give you a pretty good summary:

http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/

That's one judicial establishment that persecutes people on the basis of their beliefs.

The problem of course is the government doesn't exactly publicize it's anti-thought activities, so the information available is limited.

[Middle-aged Europe]

I can't read German, but these guys should be able to give you a pretty good summary:

http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/

That's one judicial establishment that persecutes people on the basis of their beliefs.

The problem of course is the government doesn't exactly publicize it's anti-thought activities, so the information available is limited.

I do have the Verfassungschutz´s annual report on my computer, but thanks. By the way, I´m still waiting for an example that people who are "questioning the government on any policy" are sentenced to life here...


Concerning your claim that people critizising immigration policy are jailed, I have some quotes from Edmund Stoiber for you (I can´t really believe that I´m citing him to prove my point):

"The racially blended and mixed society is a threat to Germany" - Edmund Stoiber, 1988

"Germany is not an immigration country and therefore it doesn´t need any immigration laws." - Edmund Stoiber, 1992

"You are closing theaters, we are building museums and deporting (immigrants)." - Edmund Stoiber, 1996

"We want the christian-occidental culture to remain the guiding culture and not that it is absorped into a mishmash." - Edmund Stoiber, 2000

I did my best with the translations. Stoiber literally created some of the terms he used in those quotes (for example "durchrasst", which I translated as "racially blended"), so there are no real equivalents in English. Anyway, Edmund Stoiber was never arrested, never charged and never jailed for anything... he´s "minister-president" of Bavaria since 1993, chairman of the CSU since 1999 and was the CDU/CSU candidate for the office of Chancellor in 2002 (he lost, but only as narrow as John Kerry did in 2004). And keep in mind that those are only the quotes of a one single politician.

Are you sure that you don´t want to retract your claim that people critcizing immigration are jailed in Germany?

[Gabu]

Well they don't use their power to go after trivial criticism. But if you criticize immigration policy, you're probably headed for the slammer.

Obviously, you haven't heard of the recent fiasco with Immigration Minister Judy Sgro.  Her immigration policies were harshly criticized by, well, basically everyone.  None of those people were jailed, and, in fact, they were applauded for helping to expose a really bizarre policy that really needed to be changed.

And, no, tons of American citizens are not being held "without trial." There are terrorists being held, though the number isn't overly high, and the couple that are American citizens have been ordered charged or released by the courts.

For the vast majority of them, no charges whatsoever have been laid.  If you're so sure they're terrorists, why can't you charge any of them with anything?  If there's inadequate evidence, how do you know they're terrorists?

There are indeed US citizens, as well.  Look up the name of Yaser Esam Hamdi, a US citizen who was held for two years as an "enemy combatant".

As I said before, they're being held there because they're allegedly "a threat to national security".  That sounds familiar - it's the same reason given for deporting Zundel.

The US is far, far from perfect, but it's also one of the few countries to take freedom of speech seriously. Canada and Germany sure don't.

The number of people who get arrested who take part in protests against the government in either country is comparable, with usually less Canadians arrested than Americans.

I can go to Parliament right now, stand outside, and scream obscenities at it and I probably wouldn't get arrested.  I'd get looked at weird, but not arrested.

I can do anything I want within my house and the government won't tell me otherwise.

I can write a letter to my editor criticizing anything I want about the government and I won't get arrested for it.

I don't particularly like our hate speech laws, but that's just one segment of speech.  If you want to generalize that to the entire country, be my guest, but you'd be, well, wrong.  Canada has a (1, 1) rating from the Freedom House, which means that it's equivalent on the large scale of things to the United States in terms of both political rights and civil liberties.

For the record, Germany gets a (1, 1) rating too.

You're taking small, isolated events that are, while reprehensible, not in any way representative of the grand scale of things, and then trying to extrapolate these events to the country at large.  It just doesn't work.

[Middle-aged Europe]

You're taking small, isolated events that are, while reprehensible, not in any way representative of the grand scale of things, and then trying to extrapolate these events to the country at large.  It just doesn't work.

Amen.

[John Dibble]

Question for you, Old Europe - do you support your government's actions in this case?

[Michael Z]

Question for you, Old Europe - do you support your government's actions in this case?

Before you lecture Old Europe and other Germans on free speech, you may wish to understand the different sensibilities which exist between cultures, and why that particular culture may not tolerate far right extremists. The trauma of Nazism still looms large in German society, Germany is very ashamed of its past and the actions that went on within its country. World War 2 was only sixty years ago, and the pain it caused has not yet disappeared.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Question for you, Old Europe - do you support your government's actions in this case?

You mean concerning the Zündel case? Well, would it be gutless to say that I´m rather undecided? Getting him into jail isn´t exactly my top priority. Freeing him neither.

The German laws regarding Nazis are a understandable product of the experiences with the Third Reich. Had the United States started a world war and initiated a major genocide there would probably exist similar laws in the US today. During the Weimar Republic the Nazis had the right to say what they wanted say... in the end they became the largest party in parliament and managed to take over the government. The rest is history.

On the other hand such laws shouldn´t be carried to excess. And it´s debatable wether these regulations have a use at all, considering that the Nazis won´t simply disappear. Instead they go into the underground and do there what they would do anyway. In addition, you have to keep in mind that you could create martyrs by prosecuting Nazis. And last but not least there´s the "freedom of speech" argument.

So, I have really no idea... but AuH2O statements are the usual mix of exaggarations, misconceptions and possibly lies. As the quotes of Edmund Stoiber show, a leading politican is able to complain about too much "racial blending" caused by immigration without getting thrown into jail (or being forced to resign)... of course, Stoiber´s remarks often caused quite a stir.

[John Dibble]

Question for you, Old Europe - do you support your government's actions in this case?

You mean concerning the Zündel case? Well, would it be gutless to say that I´m rather undecided? Getting him into jail isn´t exactly my top priority. Freeing him neither.

The German laws regarding Nazis are a understandable product of the experiences with the Third Reich. Had the United States started a world war and initiated a major genocide there would probably exist similar laws in the US today. During the Weimar Republic the Nazis had the right to say what they wanted say... in the end they became the largest party in parliament and managed to take over the government. The rest is history.

On the other hand such laws shouldn´t be carried to excess. And it´s debatable wether these regulations have a use at all, considering that the Nazis won´t simply disappear. Instead they go into the underground and do there what they would do anyway. In addition, you have to keep in mind that you could create martyrs by prosecuting Nazis. And last but not least there´s the "freedom of speech" argument.

So, I have really no idea... but AuH2O statements are the usual mix of exaggarations, misconceptions and possibly lies. As the quotes of Edmund Stoiber show, a leading politican is able to complain about too much "racial blending" caused by immigration without getting thrown into jail (or being forced to resign)...

Ok, I was just curious as to your opinion on the matter, and no I don't think you're gutless for holding it. I can easily grasp the 'why' of the law, but I still don't feel it is justified. I think what really needs to be done is for Germany to adopt something along the lines of the U.S. Constitution, something that restricts government power in matters of right and is very difficult to change. That way, even if something like the Nazi party came to any semblance of power, it would still be difficult for them to do anything too extreme. As you pointed out, simply banning it and arresting them isn't gonna make them go away - it may even get them support. The best way to deal with these people is to have a better argument - make it sound better to most people, especially the intelligencia(who would be vital in providing your ideas support) - so that they are never taken seriously.

As an aside, it must be noted that when the government is allowed to curtail free speech for one idea, it is able to do so for any idea - it just needs to be unpopular enough. It's a double edged sword, and I don't think it's worth the risk for the minimal benefits.

[Akno21]

Before we jump to conclusions, are we sure that the only thing this guy did was deny the holocaust? If it's just that, then it's a bit odd to say the least, but there likely is more to the story.

[John Dibble]

Before we jump to conclusions, are we sure that the only thing this guy did was deny the holocaust? If it's just that, then it's a bit odd to say the least, but there likely is more to the story.

All signs point to us not having jumped to the wrong conclusion - he is indeed being jailed for simply having denied the holocaust.

[Jake]

Hey, this is great.  Another reason not to live outside the US. Oh, and BRTD, I'm sure only blacks butt rape people. Get a clue

[they don't love you like i love you]

 it'd be great to have him prison raped by one. Hopefully that'll happen anyway.

compassionate conservative?

neither, I suspect. 

(it's also tempting to explore the blatant racism in your post, but the violence and judgement are more salient features and probably more dangerous.)

actually I said that statement about blacks because a white supremecist would hate being raped by a black much much much more than a white. Just the worst possible situation for him, nothing racist.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Hey, this is great.  Another reason not to live outside the US. Oh, and BRTD, I'm sure only blacks butt rape people. Get a clue

Explained above. I just meant that a white supremeicst would find being raped by a black much worse than being raped by a white.

[AuH2O]

Thats actually why tha Byrd guy was dragged to death in Texas-- the white guy had been in jail for a white collar crime and was butt raped all the time by black guys. So he killed the first black guy he saw when he got out of jail. So yeah, rape is definitely something to cheer about.

Stoiber, btw, has changed his tune recently... in fact, the whole song and dance.

Actually, the US committed genocide against the Native Americans. Humorously, they are STILL in camps ("reservations"). If you've been to one... it's not too pretty. Some do OK because of the loophole in the law that let them open casinos though.

And Canada certainly wasn't run by Nazis. Their excuse for thought policing is?

Germany in WW2 did nothing different than many countries have done. It's the identity of their victims that brought down everything on their heads. Anyone that doesn't see that is blind, and guess what, in a honest moment any Jewish person will agree.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Thats actually why tha Byrd guy was dragged to death in Texas-- the white guy had been in jail for a white collar crime and was butt raped all the time by black guys. So he killed the first black guy he saw when he got out of jail. So yeah, rape is definitely something to cheer about.

it was a rather brash and I'll admit foolish statement now, but overall anything that makes a white supremicist unhappy makes me happy. I have no doubt that anything that makes communists unhappy makes you happy.

Actually, the US committed genocide against the Native Americans. Humorously, they are STILL in camps ("reservations"). If you've been to one... it's not too pretty.

I have more than been to one, I've lived on one. For 9 years.

[Jake]

Thats actually why tha Byrd guy was dragged to death in Texas-- the white guy had been in jail for a white collar crime and was butt raped all the time by black guys. So he killed the first black guy he saw when he got out of jail. So yeah, rape is definitely something to cheer about.

Stoiber, btw, has changed his tune recently... in fact, the whole song and dance.

Actually, the US committed genocide against the Native Americans. Humorously, they are STILL in camps ("reservations"). If you've been to one... it's not too pretty. Some do OK because of the loophole in the law that let them open casinos though.

And Canada certainly wasn't run by Nazis. Their excuse for thought policing is?

Germany in WW2 did nothing different than many countries have done. It's the identity victims that brought down everything on their heads. Anyone that doesn't see that is blind, and guess what, in a honest moment any Jewish person will agree.

Good point in the lasy paragraph. If Germans have to hang their heads in shame for the Nazis, Americans should for slavery and our treatment of Indians, Australians for their treatment of Aborigines, Belgians for their conduct in the Congo, etc.  Every country has its black marks against its name, but when a country takes it to far like Germany did, they are in the wrong.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Stoiber, btw, has changed his tune recently... in fact, the whole song and dance.

Yes, after Stoiber´s campaign manager came to the conclusion that his rethoric could possibly hurt him north of the "Weißwurstäquator". He became suddenly a moderate after his candidacy for chancellor was announced. But as far as I know that´s something what politicians in the rest of the world do too. So what?

Actually, the US committed genocide against the Native Americans. Humorously, they are STILL in camps ("reservations"). If you've been to one... it's not too pretty. Some do OK because of the loophole in the law that let them open casinos though.

The difference is probably that those crimes were commited under a "regime" which is still in existence. I mean, the United States certainly won´t ban its own flag. In the case of Germany all aforementioned crimes were commited under one and the same regime which lasted only 12 years. So, it´s very easy to isolate, especially because the Nazis did everything to distinguish themself from previous governments.

In addition, the U.S. government (even during the Indian wars) never had a totalitarian structure, so both cases aren´t probably even roughly comparable. And I don´t how many people live in the US today, who think that killing the Native Americans was a good idea, that it should repeated as soon as possible (this time only more thorough) and who contest in elections with their political party (sometimes successful).

And Canada certainly wasn't run by Nazis. Their excuse for thought policing is?

Uh, I guess I´m the wrong guy to answer that.

Germany in WW2 did nothing different than many countries have done. It's the identity of their victims that brought down everything on their heads. Anyone that doesn't see that is blind, and guess what, in a honest moment any Jewish person will agree.

Can´t remember a Jew who told me this... probably means that all Jews I know are "dishonest", aren´t they?

[AuH2O]

How many have you asked? How many are your relatives?

[Gabu]

And Canada certainly wasn't run by Nazis. Their excuse for thought policing is?

I'm not defending Canada's actions in this specific case, only Canada in general.  No, I don't agree with what Canada did in this specific case.

[Cashcow]

How many have you asked? How many are your relatives?

I think your anti-semitism is relatively clear; this goes hand-in-hand with your elitist attitude. The fact that you are half-Jewish fuels it more than anything, as it does my naive and rebellious friends who have somehow managed to abhor their own religions.

Anyway, despite this man's attitude, I don't see any reason for him to be deported.

[Hatman 🍁]

Before we jump to conclusions, are we sure that the only thing this guy did was deny the holocaust? If it's just that, then it's a bit odd to say the least, but there likely is more to the story.

All signs point to us not having jumped to the wrong conclusion - he is indeed being jailed for simply having denied the holocaust.

The Supreme Court of Canada in 1991 made a decision saying that such an action would be unconstitutional. Note: he was deported for inciting hatred, not denying the holocaust. I am pretty certain that if I went out and denied the holocaust I would not be jailed.

I would also like to say that the US has a lot less freedom of speech than in Canada. I hear a lot about how religious Conservative groups are banning this that and the kitchen sink for promoting homosexuality.  It may not be the government doing it but special interest groups sure are- and that does lead to government policy.

It should also be noted that Zundel was also arrested in the United States in the past, he has links with violent neo-nazi organizations and he wanted in Germany for hate crimes.

[AuH2O]

Stop lying. Zundel was kicked out of the US because of his views-- he's not a US citizen, his visa was up, and they wouldn't renew it.

He didn't "incite" anything. Canadian communist judges declared that "denying" any part of the Holocaust automatically constitutes "inciting" hate against Jews, though of course that is pure nonsense since claiming they didn't die is merely challenging the historical record, and by extension actually is anti-violence.

Further, the crimes Germany will charge him with are the same-- "inciting" "hate" by questioning certain specifics of concentration camp design and size.

By claiming he has links to violent groups or has committed some kind of violence, you are blatantly lying in a silly, amateur attempt to make Canada look like something other than an anti-free speech country. Next time, research basic facts of the case so your lies will be a little more convincing.

[John Dibble]

I am pretty certain that if I went out and denied the holocaust I would not be jailed.

If you did in Germany, you would.

[Middle-aged Europe]

How many have you asked? How many are your relatives?

Oh, yeah I guess I will start a survey...

Further, the crimes Germany will charge him with are the same-- "inciting" "hate" by questioning certain specifics of concentration camp design and size.

"The Jews of the world have a Holocaust coming. I just hope I live to see it." - Ernst Zündel

As I already said to John Dibble I´m rather undecided about the whole deportation thing, but this quote doesn´t sound exactly as if the only thing Zündel ever did was to question "certain specifics of concentration camp design and size." Wether you agree with Germany´s laws or not, you shouldn´t try to make look him better as he actually is.

[AuH2O]

Making up fake quotes isn't a great way to show you should be jailing someone.