Which of the following should still be considered Catholic?

[Sol]

No, Most of the rest of the US generally does have a tendency to abandon religions like the midwest. Catholics and Jews seem to be the exceptions- unless they become atheists or something, they usually would tend to describe themselves as the faith they were raised in.

However, religion is generally strongly tied to personal identity and ethnicity in most of the world. The US is the exception.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I would say there is definitely no exception for Catholics in the Midwest, plenty of people in my extended family were raised Catholic and don't identify ss such anymore. Neither does basically anyone in my music scene. And I don't think anyone at my church raised Catholic would still identify as such for obvious reasons.

[Oakvale]

Many of the cultural/cafeteria Catholics don't quit the RCC because they feel some sort of vague connection, whether it be via force of habit/family tradition, or just because they grew up in it and its what they are familiar with. Also, Catholicism isn't exactly favorable to schisms, so it's not like Protestants who just start a new church if they disagree on a major issue.

Believe it or not, most people don't spend much time thinking about their belief systems, religious or political or whatever.

Exactly. I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that but I was raised Catholic and my cultural context is at least somewhat influenced by Catholicism, most of my relatives are at least nominally Catholic (go to Mass at Christmas etc.)... so I'm not going to bother formally renouncing the church or whatever. Who cares? I'm happier having some vestige of cultural tradition and history than attempting to remake myself as rugged individualist 21st Century Man devoid of all shared cultural identity.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Many of the cultural/cafeteria Catholics don't quit the RCC because they feel some sort of vague connection, whether it be via force of habit/family tradition, or just because they grew up in it and its what they are familiar with. Also, Catholicism isn't exactly favorable to schisms, so it's not like Protestants who just start a new church if they disagree on a major issue.

Believe it or not, most people don't spend much time thinking about their belief systems, religious or political or whatever.

Exactly. I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that but I was raised Catholic and my cultural context is at least somewhat influenced by Catholicism, most of my relatives are at least nominally Catholic (go to Mass at Christmas etc.)... so I'm not going to bother formally renouncing the church or whatever. Who cares? I'm happier having some vestige of cultural tradition and history than attempting to remake myself as rugged individualist 21st Century Man devoid of all shared cultural identity.

Anyone like the plausible hypothetical though, which is not an insignificant amount, would not think this way. Neither does basically anyone in my scene too, which is why I find it a rather odd train of thought, I've actually never encountered it in real life. Either there's something notably unique about my scene (plausible), something unique about the Upper Midwest making this the only place in the world where people raised Catholic who no longer practice don't feel this way (not exactly plausible) or this is far from something universal that applies to EVERY SINGLE PERSON ever raised Catholic.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Many of the cultural/cafeteria Catholics don't quit the RCC because they feel some sort of vague connection, whether it be via force of habit/family tradition, or just because they grew up in it and its what they are familiar with. Also, Catholicism isn't exactly favorable to schisms, so it's not like Protestants who just start a new church if they disagree on a major issue.

Believe it or not, most people don't spend much time thinking about their belief systems, religious or political or whatever.

Exactly. I don't believe in Jesus or anything like that but I was raised Catholic and my cultural context is at least somewhat influenced by Catholicism, most of my relatives are at least nominally Catholic (go to Mass at Christmas etc.)... so I'm not going to bother formally renouncing the church or whatever. Who cares? I'm happier having some vestige of cultural tradition and history than attempting to remake myself as rugged individualist 21st Century Man devoid of all shared cultural identity.

On this note I personally only really pay attention to my Prod background* when I want to emphasize that I feel somewhat estranged from the conventional identities and cultural norms associated with being "Irish" (Of course, I have no doubt the two are connected quite a bit). Otherwise it's not hugely important and I have feel no connection whatsoever with loyalism, unionism, or any other such ideology that exists in a country which is, as far as I'm concerned, completely foreign to me.

* (Except when talking to my grandmother who is very much of the "Catholics are like this, Protestants are like that" school of thought. Bless her. She is, after all, from Belfast)

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Or, shorter and more relevant to this thread: Identity. It means different things to different people.

Or even shorter: Stop trolling, BRTD.

[Oak Hills]

None of these people are Catholic, but the tradition one was raised in is going to influence their life, whether they identify with it later in life or not.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

In a way I think Gully might've unintentionally proven my point in a sense, he doesn't care too much about his Protestant background, well guess what, there are hordes of people in the US from Catholic families who don't care either. In the Midwest I haven't noticed any stronger Catholic association than with Protestantism at all. All the hypotheticals are very plausible people who don't care about their background. Why do people talk about that as if it's universal when actually a full third of people raised Catholic in the US no longer are?

So really call yourself whatever you want, my point is that people raised Catholic who do NOT wish to identify as such should not:

1-Be thought of as freaks who violate some sacred universal rule every person every baptized Catholic just HAS to adhere to or
2-Be considered ethnic traitors, no longer "true" members of whatever their background is. This basically: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CategoryTraitor

From what I've been told for example my atheist friend in the scene with a very Irish last name would be considered some sort of nutjob if he was in actual Ireland because he does not think of himself as a "non-practicing Catholic" or "cultural Catholic", but rather simply an atheist and that's it. It's obvious oakvale wouldn't approve from his post above.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Part of the thing about a place like the Upper Midwest is that there isn't much of a history of many different ethnic groups besides "Yankees", Germans, and Scandinavians-all of whom assimilated relatively quickly into General American Midwestern culture.

I mean, look at the Germans after WW1 who changed their names to be more "Anglo". And this isn't even going into marriages between Yankees, Germans, and Scandinavian Protestants-or indeed, religious blending between these groups.

Contrast this to the Northeast, where Catholicism was much more of an Eastern and Southern European thing, plus the Irish-in other words, countries that already were mostly Catholic, but also, because the ethnic immigrant Catholics became more or less the dominant culture (eventually) in the Northeast-well, it's easier to identify as "culturally Catholic" in a place like the Northeast because there are a lot of Catholics there. Plus, the whole being excluded by the Yankee dominant culture in the Northeast...

In the Midwest, I suspect the combination of a more Protestant-dominated culture plus the assimilation of the German Catholics (because they were German...) meant that "cultural Catholicism" is less of a thing there.

Does this makes sense at all, BRTD?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But that's basically admitting there's more to it than just something inherent in Catholicism, and it's more complicated than "everyone baptized Catholic is always a cultural Catholic even if they don't believe in God or not."

[All Along The Watchtower]

But that's basically admitting there's more to it than just something inherent in Catholicism, and it's more complicated than "everyone baptized Catholic is always a cultural Catholic even if they don't believe in God or not."

...and?

A lot of Catholics around the world live in either Catholic-majority or plurality countries, or otherwise are identfiable in a given country in terms of shared culture, history...

America is a highly Protestant-influenced nation in terms of overall culture; I think the Northeast and places like Louisiana are actually less typical of America in this regard.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

In a way I think Gully might've unintentionally proven my point in a sense, he doesn't care too much about his Protestant background, well guess what, there are hordes of people in the US from Catholic families who don't care either. In the Midwest I haven't noticed any stronger Catholic association than with Protestantism at all. All the hypotheticals are very plausible people who don't care about their background. Why do people talk about that as if it's universal when actually a full third of people raised Catholic in the US no longer are?

Congratulations. You missed my point. You fail. And I never said it was universal. But then again we all know that the rest of the world is exactly like the US Midwest.

My point regarding my Protestant identity is that I don't feel strongly attached to the ideas and slogans traditionally associated with Irish Anglicanism even in its more liberal variety. That's my personal feelings. Yet within the society I live identifying myself as Protestant attaches certain values and ideas to myself and my familial background. Which is why in certain circumstances I identify as such. Basically, in church, I'm an atheist, when talking to people about culture and cultural background, I'm Protestant, when talking to a census taker... well, that depends on what I'm feeling at the moment, doesn't it?

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Never said that. What I did explain was why people continued to identity as such despite no interest and even complete abandonment of religion and the church.

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Of course there are people like that. MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT (albeit admittedly the number of such people is increasing).





It seems that Catholicism is on the wane in what were once urban strongholds. Maeve Connolly has a big front page splash on the front of the Irish News today on regular Mass attendances of just 4% in Poleglass. Holy Family in north Belfast is just bringing 17% of the local Catholic population.

Dublin Archdiocese – with its huge churches designed for another age, and which struggles financially with their up keep – pulls in a mere 14%. Beyond the big cities however people have remained more faithful. In Rasharkin something like 60-65% still go. Yet back in the 1970s the average regular Mass attendance was in the region of 90%. The survey gives percentages in terms of possible Catholics.

Yes, church attendance is actually lower in Northern Ireland than the Republic yet I don't you will find many Catholics declaring themselves Atheists; although you will find some Atheist Catholics. 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm  not saying the entire world is like the US. However when people talk in terms of the "CULTURE OMG" school of thought, they usually are just talking about "Catholics". They don't throw "Irish" in front or anything like that. And it is spoken as if it's universal. You know the dumbass saying "once a Catholic, always a Catholic"?

Now let's take a look at that survey. It says 84% still identify as Catholic. That's probably over 90% of people raised that way. Now in the US, only 66% of people raised Catholic still identify that way. That number that doesn't is hardly insignificant. OK blah blah fine the US and Ireland are different countries. Fine. Which country is bigger? If anything I'd say that proves it's not just the American Midwest. After all my brand of Christianity is kind of a national thing (plus Canada), and it's absurd to think that no one raised Catholic is converting to it in the Northeast. There seems to be a thought too in the US that Protestants are willing to church hop around and convert to different denominations all the time, but actually the statistics show that's not the case, people from a Catholic background do it too, and they're just as likely to actually switch to "none" instead of just cease practicing. Does Progressive Realist for example think the scene in the Northeast is full of people who still identify as Catholic? Even the Christian hardcore bands from the Northeast that I know of are all pretty blatantly Protestant. Counter-culture is pretty much devoid of anything who identifies as Catholic on even a nominal level. These aren't insignificant numbers.

And the "I was raised Catholic but then creased practicing and was so empty until Jesus touched my heart again and now I am so filled with the Spirit!" testimonial is something I've heard too many times to count. It seems people raised Catholic who fall out and then find Christ again never revert to Catholicism, which is also kind of an interesting social phenomena.