Who do you blame more for the shutdown?
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  Who do you blame more for the shutdown?
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Author Topic: Who do you blame more for the shutdown?  (Read 11267 times)
Earthling
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« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2013, 10:09:27 AM »

If Boehner is really that scared about his speakership he could make a deal with the Democrats. By promising to bring in the sane Republicans (there should be 25 or 30) and let them vote with the Democrats on certain issues where they can reach an agreement (the budget, immigration reform, debt ceiling) and in turn the Democrats will help Boehner keep his job until the end of the current Congress.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2013, 10:10:37 AM »

Both parties. Both parties could have stopped the shutdown by acquiescing to the demands of the other, and both refused. The only way to say the GOP solely is to say that it's patently unreasonable to want to repeal Obamacare.

Wrong.  It's perfectly reasonable that they would want to.  But to shut down the government in an effort to get their way on this issue, or on any issue, is not at all reasonable.

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bballrox4717
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« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2013, 10:11:40 AM »

If Boehner is really that scared about his speakership he could make a deal with the Democrats. By promising to bring in the sane Republicans (there should be 25 or 30) and let them vote with the Democrats on certain issues where they can reach an agreement (the budget, immigration reform, debt ceiling) and in turn the Democrats will help Boehner keep his job until the end of the current Congress.

Why would Democrats do that? They can still get what they want by watching the Republicans and Boehner destroy themselves, as well as make the GOP look worse to gain more seats.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2013, 10:12:51 AM »

The Republicans obviously.

The wonderful thing about a shutdown is that it reminds people, particularly sections of the ignorant poor (whose ignorance is often fanned by the GOP) of how important the federal government actually is to their daily lives.

Over the past decade the GOP has decamped from the ‘small government’ ethos that once argued for a balanced approach to federal government, state government, funding and growth to a position that seems to be nothing more than out and out hatred for government simply functioning. That attitude also seems to pervade positions taken by the court as well. People say that the GOP has a dislike for minority interests however recently it’s apparent that they are a minority in hatred of the majority. Public support and electoral vindication of ‘Obamacare’ has swamped them, same goes for women’s bodies, gay rights, immigration, education. The GOP takes the minority position on nearly every salient public issue of the day. It no longer rests on the political spectrum at all and is now a conspiracy driven machine. The truth is it’s the internet that did it. The GOP’s grassroots are conspiracy theorists; they are birthers, they are the poor who think Mexicans want to swamp the country, they are the people who think the Muslim Brotherhood have infiltrated the government, the people who think that women can shut down a pregnancy, that climate change isn’t happening, that science is dangerous, that atheists hate America, that teaching children the age of the earth is unconstitutional and that gays are the worst group of people in America. They are the people who boo gay servicemen. They are the Christian right and the Paultards and every ideology of that nature that exists on a diet of conspiracy or if that’s not their thing, create a version of ‘reality’ that meets their needs.

It was etched on their faces on election night; the entire Romney campaign just didn’t know never mind didn’t accept what was actually happening out there. These people have Palin, and Cruz and Beck and Fox and WND and Unskewed Polls and a whole wealth of internet resources to back them up. Reality is nothing more than an inconvenience. The problem for any moderates in the GOP is that these people are now conditioned to think that way. If it means driving the GOP off an electoral cliff they will do it.

Very good opinion. And a valid one.

What will the sane Republicans who are looking towards 2016 do? Christie, Jeb Bush, Huntsman all have to become the standardbearer for the party in order to become President. But the party is so toxic that the (R) behind their name might drive away a lot of voters in the most important states. Winning the Presidency as a Republican becomes more and more difficult if the conservatives within the party keep on pushing the party (and the country) closer and closer to the edge of destruction.

I'm tired of hearing about how Jeb Bush is a "sane Republican". He changed the only position that people care about hearing from him to find some sort of sembalance of moving to the base. The GOP needs someone, anyone, who is willing to stand on principle against the kooks, not another freaking Romney. Maybe that's Christie, maybe that's Huntsman, but I have very little hope.

I doubt Jeb Bush would act in the same way as many Republicans are acting now. Bush is very conservative but not nuts. Not like Steve King or Ted Cruz.

But if they were going that way, Bush wouldn't stop them, because Bush is, like most Republicans in the House and Senate, shaking in his freaking boots.
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Earthling
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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2013, 10:15:33 AM »

First, the Democrats would look like they are the mature party who are willing to govern.
Second, it would get things done. Things that need to be done.
Third, the Democrats can not rely on the mid-term elections. They could easily lose seats.
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Earthling
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« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2013, 10:18:28 AM »
« Edited: October 01, 2013, 11:13:08 AM by Northeast Representative Earthling »

The Republicans obviously.

The wonderful thing about a shutdown is that it reminds people, particularly sections of the ignorant poor (whose ignorance is often fanned by the GOP) of how important the federal government actually is to their daily lives.

Over the past decade the GOP has decamped from the ‘small government’ ethos that once argued for a balanced approach to federal government, state government, funding and growth to a position that seems to be nothing more than out and out hatred for government simply functioning. That attitude also seems to pervade positions taken by the court as well. People say that the GOP has a dislike for minority interests however recently it’s apparent that they are a minority in hatred of the majority. Public support and electoral vindication of ‘Obamacare’ has swamped them, same goes for women’s bodies, gay rights, immigration, education. The GOP takes the minority position on nearly every salient public issue of the day. It no longer rests on the political spectrum at all and is now a conspiracy driven machine. The truth is it’s the internet that did it. The GOP’s grassroots are conspiracy theorists; they are birthers, they are the poor who think Mexicans want to swamp the country, they are the people who think the Muslim Brotherhood have infiltrated the government, the people who think that women can shut down a pregnancy, that climate change isn’t happening, that science is dangerous, that atheists hate America, that teaching children the age of the earth is unconstitutional and that gays are the worst group of people in America. They are the people who boo gay servicemen. They are the Christian right and the Paultards and every ideology of that nature that exists on a diet of conspiracy or if that’s not their thing, create a version of ‘reality’ that meets their needs.

It was etched on their faces on election night; the entire Romney campaign just didn’t know never mind didn’t accept what was actually happening out there. These people have Palin, and Cruz and Beck and Fox and WND and Unskewed Polls and a whole wealth of internet resources to back them up. Reality is nothing more than an inconvenience. The problem for any moderates in the GOP is that these people are now conditioned to think that way. If it means driving the GOP off an electoral cliff they will do it.

Very good opinion. And a valid one.

What will the sane Republicans who are looking towards 2016 do? Christie, Jeb Bush, Huntsman all have to become the standardbearer for the party in order to become President. But the party is so toxic that the (R) behind their name might drive away a lot of voters in the most important states. Winning the Presidency as a Republican becomes more and more difficult if the conservatives within the party keep on pushing the party (and the country) closer and closer to the edge of destruction.

I'm tired of hearing about how Jeb Bush is a "sane Republican". He changed the only position that people care about hearing from him to find some sort of sembalance of moving to the base. The GOP needs someone, anyone, who is willing to stand on principle against the kooks, not another freaking Romney. Maybe that's Christie, maybe that's Huntsman, but I have very little hope.

I doubt Jeb Bush would act in the same way as many Republicans are acting now. Bush is very conservative but not nuts. Not like Steve King or Ted Cruz.

But if they were going that way, Bush wouldn't stop them, because Bush is, like most Republicans in the House and Senate, shaking in his freaking boots.

That may be true, but he is sane. That is my point. He is not badsh#t crazy like Bachmann or Lee.
It remains to be seen if Huntsman and Christie have the spine to stand against the nut-jobs. They need the same people to get elected.
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« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2013, 10:59:04 AM »
« Edited: October 01, 2013, 11:01:27 AM by Scott »

Both parties. Both parties could have stopped the shutdown by acquiescing to the demands of the other, and both refused. The only way to say the GOP solely is to say that it's patently unreasonable to want to repeal Obamacare.

Exactly what did Democrats demand other than that the government stay open?
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2013, 11:34:09 AM »

The Republicans - if they want to make minor alterations to Obamacare, they could have done, but this is not the way to go about it.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2013, 12:20:07 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IC3W1BiUjp0
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TDAS04
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« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2013, 02:18:06 PM »

Republicans. 
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« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2013, 02:19:27 PM »

Democrats for passing a bill that will destroy our healthcare

Shut. The fk. Up.
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Swedish Rainbow Capitalist Cheese
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« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2013, 02:32:51 PM »

Republicans, obviously. This is almost like asking "who is responsible for the German invasion of Poland?"

Clearly it was Poland's fault for not giving the Germans the Polish corridor when they demanded it.
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2013, 02:56:03 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2013, 03:00:26 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

By that logic, we should have stricter background checks and an assault weapons ban since a majority of Americans supported that.
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« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2013, 03:04:19 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 
Where are you getting this bullsh**t from?
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RedSLC
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« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2013, 03:32:29 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

Even if that statistic was real, this really isn't an ideal time or situation to try and repeal it. It's not like it's the only thing that could be cut, either.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2013, 03:44:31 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

Where are you getting that statistic from?  And a strong majority of Americans do not approve of defunding Obamacare if it leads to a shutdown.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2013, 06:19:44 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

... plus, if you take the 'Obamacare' label off it, the components ARE popular.

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Gass3268
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« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2013, 06:27:38 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

Where are you getting that statistic from?  And a strong majority of Americans do not approve of defunding Obamacare if it leads to a shutdown.

He pulled that number out of his ass.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2013, 06:29:21 PM »

Republicans, but I don't necessarily view it in a negative way outside of the basic political repercussions. Democrats would have done the same, and will do the same in the future, and I can't say I blame them.
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Yank2133
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« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2013, 06:32:34 PM »

Republicans, but I don't necessarily view it in a negative way outside of the basic political repercussions. Democrats would have done the same, and will do the same in the future, and I can't say I blame them.

Oh please......

Honestly, this both sides do it crap is getting annoying. No, one side is ing insane and the other isn't and that is all their is to it.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2013, 06:39:09 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

Where are you getting that statistic from?  And a strong majority of Americans do not approve of defunding Obamacare if it leads to a shutdown.

I was prepared to make a snide comment that 70% of "real" Americans oppose the Affordable Care Act, but the polling shows that opposition among whites is in the high 50's and opposition among Republicans is well over 80%.  So it can't be the first group, nor can it really be the second group since right now they are unreal rather than real. So yeah, it looks like this was a SWAG on the part of JCL.

Unfortunately, while an overwhelming majority is opposed to using a government shutdown as a tactic, according to the polls, a bare majority of Republicans approve of this.  While I hope I'm wrong, I would not be surprised to see this shutdown last a while, possibly until the debt ceiling replaces it as the immediate concern in a couple weeks.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2013, 06:48:19 PM »

Senate Democrats and Obama. 70% of Americans oppose Obamacare. 

Where are you getting that statistic from?  And a strong majority of Americans do not approve of defunding Obamacare if it leads to a shutdown.

I was prepared to make a snide comment that 70% of "real" Americans oppose the Affordable Care Act, but the polling shows that opposition among whites is in the high 50's and opposition among Republicans is well over 80%.  So it can't be the first group, nor can it really be the second group since right now they are unreal rather than real. So yeah, it looks like this was a SWAG on the part of JCL.

Unfortunately, while an overwhelming majority is opposed to using a government shutdown as a tactic, according to the polls, a bare majority of Republicans approve of this.  While I hope I'm wrong, I would not be surprised to see this shutdown last a while, possibly until the debt ceiling replaces it as the immediate concern in a couple weeks.

Where are you seeing that?  The last poll I saw showed a plurality of Republicans (49%) opposed defunding Obamacare if it led to a government shutdown, with 30-something percent favoring it.
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PJ
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« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2013, 07:07:43 PM »

Republicans
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2013, 07:14:22 PM »

Unfortunately, while an overwhelming majority is opposed to using a government shutdown as a tactic, according to the polls, a bare majority of Republicans approve of this.  While I hope I'm wrong, I would not be surprised to see this shutdown last a while, possibly until the debt ceiling replaces it as the immediate concern in a couple weeks.

Where are you seeing that?  The last poll I saw showed a plurality of Republicans (49%) opposed defunding Obamacare if it led to a government shutdown, with 30-something percent favoring it.

The Quinnpiac poll (Questions 38 and 39) released today has Republicans supporting a shutdown 49-44 and supporting using the debt ceiling 52-39 if it will lead to a defunding of Obamacare.
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