German Elections & Politics

[Beezer]

Don't see what the problem is. The leader of the German Muslim Council thinks he's entitled to change the AfD program as he sees fit and simultaneously link the party to Hitler and the Holocaust. There really is no basis for discussion there.

Well, everyone is entitled to say the truth. Sorry if that triggers you.

I know the words "fascist" and "Nazi" are thrown around by the left like they're going out of business but it would suit you and your ilk well to take a step back and look at what you are actually saying when you're accusing the AfD of being a Third Reich party. You are implying that the AfD advocates or would at least tacitly support the murder/forced deportation of 4 million Muslims in Germany. Think about that for a moment. That is a ridiculous charge. As a matter of fact I think anyone making such a claim should get their ass sued for libel. The AfD is right to take such an uncompromising stance on the issue. It's time to stop the casual accusation of perfectly decent people as Nazis.

Well, they are ready to shot any Muslim getting near the border. It's barely a step further.

What's the point in having a discussion when you either clearly don't know sh*t about the whole "border protection" incident or are just trolling? The interviewer practically asked Petry "laws regarding the protection of Germany's border include using armed force as a last resort (after all border police officers do carry guns), do you agree with that?" Petry's affirmative answer was then recast by the media as "OMFG, Petry wants to massacre migrant babies at the border."

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

In all fairness the centrist position at the moment is to outsource the shooting of border crossing Muslims to Erdogan

[Beezer]

Don't see what the problem is. The leader of the German Muslim Council thinks he's entitled to change the AfD program as he sees fit and simultaneously link the party to Hitler and the Holocaust. There really is no basis for discussion there.

Well, everyone is entitled to say the truth. Sorry if that triggers you.

I know the words "fascist" and "Nazi" are thrown around by the left like they're going out of business but it would suit you and your ilk well to take a step back and look at what you are actually saying when you're accusing the AfD of being a Third Reich party. You are implying that the AfD advocates or would at least tacitly support the murder/forced deportation of 4 million Muslims in Germany. Think about that for a moment. That is a ridiculous charge. As a matter of fact I think anyone making such a claim should get their ass sued for libel. The AfD is right to take such an uncompromising stance on the issue. It's time to stop the casual accusation of perfectly decent people as Nazis.

when the platform says "islam does not belong to germany", what exactly do you think that entails?

I'd say there are a variety of different positions that you can take between "Islam is a part of Germany" (as claimed by the former president) and "gas all Muslims." This part of the platform IMO is just a response to the aforementioned claim by various politicians about Islam being a part of Germany. Personally, I think they could have avoided phrasing it like that because some people see it in a vacuum and immediately jump to conclusions instead of recognizing it as the mere counterpoint that it actually is. The inherent problem has always been that the folks who claim that Islam is a part of Germany don't actually expand on that assertion. Is it part of our culture? If yes, what are the Islamic elements of contemporary German culture aside from döner kebab? Or are we just referring to the simple fact that Muslims are living in Germany, hence Islam is a part of Germany just as is the case with Buddhism, Shinto etc.?

So as long as their platform fails to call for the expulsion/murder of Muslims, I'd appreciate if people refrained from comparing the party to the NSDAP.

[SUSAN CRUSHBONE]

Don't see what the problem is. The leader of the German Muslim Council thinks he's entitled to change the AfD program as he sees fit and simultaneously link the party to Hitler and the Holocaust. There really is no basis for discussion there.

Well, everyone is entitled to say the truth. Sorry if that triggers you.

I know the words "fascist" and "Nazi" are thrown around by the left like they're going out of business but it would suit you and your ilk well to take a step back and look at what you are actually saying when you're accusing the AfD of being a Third Reich party. You are implying that the AfD advocates or would at least tacitly support the murder/forced deportation of 4 million Muslims in Germany. Think about that for a moment. That is a ridiculous charge. As a matter of fact I think anyone making such a claim should get their ass sued for libel. The AfD is right to take such an uncompromising stance on the issue. It's time to stop the casual accusation of perfectly decent people as Nazis.

when the platform says "islam does not belong to germany", what exactly do you think that entails?

I'd say there are a variety of different positions that you can take between "Islam is a part of Germany" (as claimed by the former president) and "gas all Muslims." This part of the platform IMO is just a response to the aforementioned claim by various politicians about Islam being a part of Germany. Personally, I think they could have avoided phrasing it like that because some people see it in a vacuum and immediately jump to conclusions instead of recognizing it as the mere counterpoint that it actually is. The inherent problem has always been that the folks who claim that Islam is a part of Germany don't actually expand on that assertion. Is it part of our culture? If yes, what are the Islamic elements of contemporary German culture aside from döner kebab? Or are we just referring to the simple fact that Muslims are living in Germany, hence Islam is a part of Germany just as is the case with Buddhism, Shinto etc.?

So as long as their platform fails to call for the expulsion/murder of Muslims, I'd appreciate if people refrained from comparing the party to the NSDAP.

you are evading the question.
1) doesn't "islam does not belong to germany" logically imply support of a germany without islam, and why/why not?
2) if so, how do you (or the afd) propose to reach such a state?
clear and straightforward answers, please.

[Beezer]

I've already stated that the sentence "Islam is not a part of Germany" is as vague as the initial "Islam is a part of Germany" comment. That's the crux of the matter. Are we talking about Islam being an integral part of German culture? If that's what Wulff meant with his initial comment, then the AfD reply is just stating the obvious - our cultural foundations have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. We are living in a country shaped by Christianity, the enlightenment and all sorts of other things...but most definitely not Islam. Are we talking about Muslims being a part of German society? Then the AfD's assessment is obviously wrong. At the same time this means that we can also claim "Japanese culture is part of Germany" based on the sizable Japanese community present in Düsseldorf and the love some Germans have for manga. I'd argue though that this isn't really what Wulff and others have been getting at.

But I'm not the AfD's spokesperson. It's pretty obvious though if you look at the party's program that it's not advocating the large scale massacre of Muslims and that this single sentence can be seen as a retort to others who see Islam as an integral part of contemporary German culture. So let's stop having a discussion on the basis that this tiny little sentence somehow can be interpreted as a call for genocide. If someone says American culture is having a detrimental impact on Europe, nobody would argue said person is calling for the expulsion of all Americans from Europe.

[President Johnson]

Breaking: Martin Schulz (SPD), President of the European Parliament, declined to be a candidate for chancellor in 2017 for the Social Democrats. Tagesschau (German)

He would have been a good candidate. However, it looks like Gabriel has to run.

[The Last Northerner]

It doesn't look like it would make a huge difference tbh, the SPD isn't looking too hot in recent polls. In recent news, a Die Linke leader was caked by antififa activists over her suggestion that not all refugees are welcome.

[Beezer]

Latest INSA-poll, compared to results from March 31, 2015 when the CDU reached an all-time high of 43%

Union: 30 (-13)
SPD: 19 (-5)
AfD: 15 (+11)
Green: 13 (+3)
Left: 9.5 (+0.5)
FDP: 8 (+4)

[President Johnson]

Latest INSA-poll, compared to results from March 31, 2015 when the CDU reached an all-time high of 43%

Union: 30 (-13)
SPD: 19 (-5)
AfD: 15 (+11)
Green: 13 (+3)
Left: 9.5 (+0.5)
FDP: 8 (+4)

Grand coalition below 50% for the first time.

[jaichind]

Latest INSA-poll, compared to results from March 31, 2015 when the CDU reached an all-time high of 43%

Union: 30 (-13)
SPD: 19 (-5)
AfD: 15 (+11)
Green: 13 (+3)
Left: 9.5 (+0.5)
FDP: 8 (+4)

Grand coalition below 50% for the first time.

Yes, but if these were the results Grand Coalition would still have a majority since CDU/CSU+SDP > AfD + Green + Linke + FDP

[Zanas]

It doesn't look like it would make a huge difference tbh, the SPD isn't looking too hot in recent polls. In recent news, a Die Linke leader was caked by antififa activists over her suggestion that not all refugees are welcome.

AntiFIFA activists ?

[rob in cal]

Yeah, Antififa activists are against the fascist international football association, with its eurocentrism, its support of giant public works (huge stadiums) and other assorted fascist transgressions.

[RedPrometheus]

German president Joachim Gauck has decided not to run for a second term.

http://www.politico.eu/article/joachim-gauck-wont-run-for-second-term-as-german-president/

[President Johnson]

German president Joachim Gauck has decided not to run for a second term.

http://www.politico.eu/article/joachim-gauck-wont-run-for-second-term-as-german-president/

No surprise. Hope they find a good successor although the office itsself is irrelevant and should be absolished.

[Sozialliberal]

Controversial statements by AfD members of parliament

DavidB., didn't you express your approval of the AfD? You might want to reconsider that.

Wolfgang Gedeon, a member of the state parliament of Baden-Württemberg for the AfD, was accused of making anti-Semitic statements and playing down the Holocaust in some of his books. We are used to reading about anti-Islamic statements from AfD politicians, but anti-Semitic statements were unheard-of. Gedeon denied being an anti-Semite and playing down the Holocaust, but said that he was a "staunch anti-Zionist". I translated some of Gedeon's statements to show you what we're talking about. To make it clear, I do not endorse his opinions in any way.

The following quotations were taken from this book by Gedeon, which was published in 2012:
Der grüne Kommunismus und die Diktatur der Minderheiten. Eine Kritik des westlichen Zeitgeists. (Green communism and the dictatorship of minorities. A critique of the Western zeitgeist.)

"In the way that Islam was the external enemy, the Talmudic ghetto Jews were the internal enemy of the Christian Occident"

"When the centre of political power moved from Europe to the US in the 20th century, Judaism in its secular-Zionist form even became a decisive factor of power and impact of Western politics. (...) The formerly internal spiritual enemy of the Occident is now a dominant factor of power in the West, and the formerly external enemy of the Occident, Islam, overran the separating borders by means of mass immigration, penetrated deeply into the Western societies and is reorganizing them in many ways."

On the erection of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe:
"It is, however, rare, if not unique, that a people erects a gigantic monument in remembrance of some disgraceful events of its history in the largest square of its capital city. The worst thing about it is: Most Germans think that's completely ‘normal’ by now."

Gedeon also called the commemoration of the Holocaust a "civil religion of the West" and the neo-Nazi and convicted Holocaust denier Horst Mahler a "dissident". He wrote that the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were "presumably not fabricated".

Jörg Meuthen, who is the chairman of the AfD group in the state parliament of BW, is known to be one of the more moderate AfD politicians. He said that he is convinced that some of Gedeon's statements were anti-Semitic, and that he would resign from his office if the proposed expulsion of Gedeon from the AfD parliamentary group failed. The expulsion of a member from a parliamentary group requires the approval of at least two thirds of the group members. Meuthen was criticized by some members of his parliamentary group and also by the federal AfD chairwoman Frauke Petry for saying he would step down if the expulsion proposal failed.

The AfD members of the BW state parliament who disagree with Meuthen can be divided up into two categories. One category thinks that some of Gedeon's statements were grotesque but not against the law, and therefore had to be tolerated for the time being. The other one is of the opinion that none of Gedeon's statements were anti-Semitic and demands an academic expert report to prove the contrary.

There was no two-thirds majority for the expulsion proposal in straw polls of the AfD parliamentary group. Then Gedeon said that he would suspend his membership of the parliamentary group because he didn't want to divide the party. Meuthen saw that as a success because his group would no longer work with Gedeon for the time being. Furthermore, Gedeon would also sit apart from the AfD group. However, the law doesn't provide for the suspension of a parliamentary group membership. So technically, Gedeon is still a member of the AfD group. The AfD group has commissioned an academic expert report that is meant to clarify whether Gedeon's statements are anti-Semitic. They plan to discuss Gedeon's expulsion again in September.


Another incident happened when the state parliament of Saxony-Anhalt was having a debate about whether Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia should be classified as "safe states of origin". That means that applications for asylum from citizens of these states are rejected by default. Henriette Quade, a member of parliament for The Left, was speaking about the situation of homosexuals in these countries:
"Particularly for homosexuals, the security situation is more than difficult. It is prohibited and is, to a great extent, a taboo. People who openly display their homosexuality are in danger of imprisonment."

According to the transcript of the session, Andreas Gehlmann, a member of parliament for the AfD, then heckled:
"We should do that in Germany, too!"

Some interpreted that as a demand for the imprisonment of people who openly display their homosexuality in Germany. Gehlmann, however, said that his heckling referred to the "taboo" part and not the "imprisonment" part. He also said that he strongly disapproves of openly displayed sexuality in general and not only openly displayed homosexuality.

[ag]

German president Joachim Gauck has decided not to run for a second term.

http://www.politico.eu/article/joachim-gauck-wont-run-for-second-term-as-german-president/

Sad to hear that.

[Tender Branson]

New Mecklenburg-Vorpommern state election poll (NDR/Infratest dimap):

25% CDU (+2 compared with 2011 election)
22% SPD (-14)
19% AfD (+19)
17% Left (-1)
  7% Greens (-2)
  4% NPD (-2)
  3% FDP (nc)
  3% Others (-2)

State election is on Sept. 4

[Sozialliberal]

AfD group split up

Meanwhile, according to Meuthen, two academic expert reports have confirmed that Gedeon did make anti-Semitic statements. However, there was still no two-thirds majority for his expulsion in the AfD parliamentary group of Baden-Württemberg. Therefore, Meuthen and twelve other AfD members who approved of the expulsion split off from the AfD group. There are ten remaining members who opposed the expulsion. An official statement from the federal party executive, of which Meuthen is a member, says that the federal party recognizes only the group around Meuthen. However, Meuthen acknowledged that the federal AfD chairwoman Petry was not involved in that decision. Petry said that she is going to talk with the "whole parliamentary group" in BW and that any form of anti-Semitism or racism had no place in the AfD. She spoke of a "constructive de-escalation" and appealed to the members of parliament to "keep calm" and not to "go public with rash decisions". This is probably a power struggle between the "moderate" (in AfD terms) Meuthen and the radical Petry. Meuthen underplayed the split-up by saying that such an event was not unusual for a young party, citing The Greens in the 1980s as an example.

It seems AfD is going down the tubes at a shockingly rapid pace. Very sad. It is incredible that even a single person would think these remarks are not antisemitic. Some AfD politicians are clearly shifting toward a FN-like position, mixing typical European antisemitism with something that resembles a Eurasianism worldview as espoused by Dugin. Petry's disapproval of the moderate's position instead of the antisemite is especially a red flag. You are right, I will need to reconsider my "support" of this party.

To give you more details on Petry's stance: Petry said that Meuthen had divided the party by saying he would step down if the expulsion proposal failed. In her opinion, that was rash. She welcomed that the AfD group had commissioned an academic expert report to clarify whether the statements are anti-Semitic. Personally, I think that's ridiculous. I don't have to be a historian to recognize anti-Semitism.

[Middle-aged Europe]

When youe establish a successful right-wing party, it's pretty much inevitable that you'll find anti-Semites there. Come one, is anyone really surprised? National conservatism and national liberalism always had an anti-Semitic streak in both Germany and Austria, be it in the German Empire/Austria-Hungary, the Weimar Republic/First Austrian Republic, or in the immediate post-war era. Why should it be any different now?

I'd also describe Jörg Meuthen's half-hearted actions as „too little, too late“. You've got a MP who's on the record of describing Muslims as the „external enemy“ and Jews as the „internal enemy of the Christian Occident“. What does Meuthen do at first? Promising to set up a committee whose job is the examine Gedeon's writings and determine whether they are anti-Semitic or not. That's ludicrous.

So, now we have two separate parliamentary groups who both continue to contain card-carrying members of the AfD. Petry would like to make peace between the two groups and merge them again, Meuthen is definitely opposed to this. At the same time, the president of the Baden-Württembergian state parliament has said that it is legally impossible for the same party to maintain two separate parliamentary groups. And while Meuthen and his followers are the ones who officially left the existing AfD parliamentary group they're the ones who also seem to be in continued control of the group's website and social media accounts. Ludicrous.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I don't think this is the finishing blow or anything. After all we all thought AfD was spiralling down when the ALFA split happened, and now they're bigger than ever. Fact is, aan unnerving proportion of people (although not thinking of themselves as anti-Semitism) will look past those comments as nothing, even in a country like Germany.

[Sozialliberal]

SPD and The Left made conditions for red-red-green coalition

Thomas Oppermann, chairman of the SPD parliamentary group in the Bundestag, set these conditions for a red-red-green coalition at federal level:

• The Left must declare their acceptance of the deployment of German military personnel in foreign countries.
• The Left must declare their acceptance of the NATO.

Bodo Ramelow, who was the first Left politician to become a governor/premier and is currently leading the first red-red-green coalition in a German state, said:
"I advise my party not to make this coalition opportunity impossible because of the NATO issue."
"That doesn't mean that we have to become enthusiastic NATO supporters."
Ramelow is considered to be part of the reformist camp of The Left, which is more open to forming coalitions and making compromises.

Sahra Wagenknecht, chairwoman of The Left parliamentary group in the Bundestag, set this condition:

• The SPD and the Greens must pursue a policy of "restoring" the welfare state and undoing the "devastation" that has been caused by the Agenda 2010.

SPD and Greens upset about attacks against NATO and Hillary Clinton from Left hardliners

Oskar Lafontaine, one of the founders and best-known politicians of The Left, has called Hillary Clinton a "terrorist" in a Facebook post. He said: "According to German law, a terrorist is someone who unlawfully uses violence to achieve political objectives." In Lafontaine's opinion, Clinton had done that as secretary of state because "in order to achieve its imperialist objectives, the United States ruthlessly wages war and continues murdering".

Sahra Wagenknecht accused the NATO of warmongering in a Bundestag debate: "The NATO encirclement of Russia does not keep the world peace but threatens it." Wagenknecht argued that the NATO should be replaced with a "collective security system" that would include Russia and would have disarmament as its central goal, which is an official policy of The Left.

Politicians from the SPD and the Greens were upset about these statements. The Green chairwoman Simone Peter said:
"The Left cannot set conditions for red-red-green on the one hand and isolate themselves with comments like these at the same time. If they take their capability of governing seriously, they must stop letting loose populist slogans."

[Middle-aged Europe]

While campaigning for the Berlin state election yesterday, a voter gave me an ice-cream.

A pleasant suprise. This almost makes up for that guy three weeks who showed me the finger and called me a "c**nt" without any provocation whatsoever.

So, not all voters are assholes. Probably only the majority of them.

[Hnv1]

Wonder how CDU\CSU are polling after this last two weeks especially in Bayern

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

If I was part of the Die Linke leadership I'd go full Cameron and demand a referendum in NATO, and when it fails say "ah well that issue can be put to rest, better enter government lol".

[palandio]

Wonder how CDU\CSU are polling after this last two weeks especially in Bayern

Federal polls:
Forsa 07/18 - 07/22: CDU/CSU 35% (same as the week before), AfD 9% (same).
INSA 07/22 -07/25: CDU/CSU 31.5% (-0.5 compared to the week before), AfD 12% (+1.0).