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Bumaye
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« Reply #3025 on: October 16, 2017, 03:07:16 PM »


The threshold was established to prevent too many parties in general (not only the far-right) entering the Bundestag. After the last democratic Reichstag election, 14 different parties were represented in the parliament.
 
 
Which is and always has been a cheep excuse. Weimar didn't failed because there was no threshold but because a majority of the electorate voted for parties who actively were against Weimar as a whole (NSDAP & KPD).
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parochial boy
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« Reply #3026 on: October 16, 2017, 03:12:59 PM »


The threshold was established to prevent too many parties in general (not only the far-right) entering the Bundestag. After the last democratic Reichstag election, 14 different parties were represented in the parliament.
 
 
Which is and always has been a cheep excuse. Weimar didn't failed because there was no threshold but because a majority of the electorate voted for parties who actively were against Weimar as a whole (NSDAP & KPD).

This is right.

And if you are really that worried, why not just have regional constituencies with no thresholds? That way you would keep out the microparties unless they had a stronger level of local support.
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DavidB.
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« Reply #3027 on: October 16, 2017, 03:22:04 PM »


Shame Linke didn't get in. Red-red-green would've been decent.
 
Die Linke in Lower Saxony is like a personal cult around Dietmar Dehm who is the living embodiment of the horseshoe theory.
That sounds pretty cool?
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« Reply #3028 on: October 16, 2017, 03:41:07 PM »


The threshold was established to prevent too many parties in general (not only the far-right) entering the Bundestag. After the last democratic Reichstag election, 14 different parties were represented in the parliament.
 
 
Which is and always has been a cheep excuse. Weimar didn't failed because there was no threshold but because a majority of the electorate voted for parties who actively were against Weimar as a whole (NSDAP & KPD).

I absolutely agree. I think there has to be a threshold, but it ought to be modernized.
Almost 7,000,000 votes were nullified in 2013.

Four proposals for a fairer threshold come into my mind:

1.) Lower the threshold to 3%.
2.) Let that many below-threshold parties enter the Bundestag until the sum of the votes of the remaining parties equals less then 5% of the total vote.
3.) Establish a second parliament for the the below-threshold parties. They oughtn't allowed to vote, but they ought to have the right to table bills and to speak in front of the Bundestag.
4.) Separate the first vote from the second vote; half of the Bundestag members ought to be elected directly, the other half via lists, without any threshold.
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« Reply #3029 on: October 16, 2017, 03:47:29 PM »

And if you are really that worried, why not just have regional constituencies with no thresholds? That way you would keep out the microparties unless they had a stronger level of local support.

There's one advantage of our voting system over district-only systems: If the turnout in one district is very low, it will nevertheless delegate as many members of parliament as a district with high turnout.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #3030 on: October 16, 2017, 03:51:18 PM »

And if you are really that worried, why not just have regional constituencies with no thresholds? That way you would keep out the microparties unless they had a stronger level of local support.

There's one advantage of our voting system over district-only systems: If the turnout in one district is very low, it will nevertheless delegate as many members of parliament as a district with high turnout.

Which would probably be a good thing in that it would to an extent mitigate the underrepresentation of demographic groups that don't turn out to vote (people who are working class, immigrants, or highly transient - all groups that tend to be woefully ignored by the political system as it currently exists).
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3031 on: October 16, 2017, 07:02:25 PM »

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« Reply #3032 on: October 16, 2017, 07:39:57 PM »

The dark purple constituency encompasses Salzgitter. The city has 106,000 inhabitants and 5,700 refugees. That is one of the highest ratio in the whole federal territory so that the state government set a precedent: The influx of asylum seekers has been prohibited. This decree is also to be applied in Delmenhorst (the dark-purple colored suburb of Bremen), where half of the refugees seem to be housed by Sarah Connor Roll Eyes, and in Wilhelmshaven in the next time. The reason why so many refugees move to those three cities is the low rent. Local residents told reporters of permanent problems with refugees.
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« Reply #3033 on: October 16, 2017, 07:53:23 PM »

Is the west side of Hannover a lot poorer than the east side as it looks like parties on the left dominate it quite heavily so is like East Berlin in demographics or for a British comparison perhaps East London.
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« Reply #3034 on: October 16, 2017, 11:07:32 PM »

Is the west side of Hannover a lot poorer than the east side as it looks like parties on the left dominate it quite heavily so is like East Berlin in demographics or for a British comparison perhaps East London.

It's mainly because of the students attending the Hochschule Hannover (within that constituency) or the Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Universität Hannover (directly adjacent to it).
But it's also the high unemployment rate that led to the high Linke vote.

UR in the whole of Hanover: 7.8%

UR in the wards within the constituency Hanover-Linden:
Ahlem: 8.9%
Burg: 7.8%
Hainholz: 13.6%
Herrenhausen: 8.9%
Ledeburg/Nordhafen: 9.9%
Leinhausen: 7.6%
Limmer: 10.6%
Linden-Mitte: 8.5%
Linden-Nord: 9.6%
Linden-Süd: 12.4%
Marienwerder: 10.2%
Stöcken: 10.3%
Vahrenheide: 16.8%
Vinnhorst/Brink-Hafen: 7.8%
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« Reply #3035 on: October 19, 2017, 08:19:34 AM »

Saxony's governor Stanislaw Tillich is going to step down in December due to the bad results in that state for his CDU in the federal election. His successor will be Michael Kretschmer, who has lost his direct mandate to the AfD and therefore won't be a member of the Bundestag anymore.

Furthermore, a debate has been raised within the SPD; current faction leader Thomas Oppermann is to become one of the new deputies of the Bundestag president - if it was up to the party leadership. Two other Social Democrats, however, have also announced their bid for that position: current deputy Ulla Schmidt and faction manager Christine Lambrecht. The crucial vote is set to take place on Monday. The Presidium of the Bundestag is currently occupied by two SPD members, which has now after the lousy election results been reduced to one.
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« Reply #3036 on: October 19, 2017, 10:33:41 AM »
« Edited: October 19, 2017, 10:37:05 AM by Great Again: The War on Football »

The Presidium of the Bundestag is currently occupied by two SPD members, which has now after the lousy election results been reduced to one.

The reduction in vice presidencies for the SPD has more something to do with the fact that there are now seven parties (counting the CSU separately) in the Bundestag instead of just five and everyone's entitled to at least one vice president. Prior to 2013, the SPD also had only a single vice president. This was then increased for the SPD, because the FDP was gone... well, and because there was now another Grand coalition and they could get away with it.

Same applies to the CDU too. Until now, the CDU had the president and a vice president, plus a separate vice president for the CSU. The CDU vice president was now eliminated.
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Sozialliberal
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« Reply #3037 on: October 22, 2017, 02:24:54 PM »
« Edited: October 22, 2017, 02:41:47 PM by Sozialliberal »

Lower Saxony: CDU woos Greens and wants Jamaica coalition

As the Lower Saxon SPD is trying to win over the sceptical FDP for a traffic-light coalition, the Lower Saxon CDU is attempting to persuade the sceptical Greens into a Jamaica coalition.

The CDU's rejection of the Green agriculture minister Meyer was considered one major obstacle to a Jamaica coalition in Lower Saxony. In the television debate with the incumbent state premier Weil (SPD), his challenger, the CDU top candidate Althusmann said:

"The Green agriculture minister Meyer would not be agriculture minister any more in a CDU-led government."

However, in a recent interview with the newspaper "Hannoversche Allgemeine", Althusmann no longer insisted on Meyer's dismissal and adopted a more conciliatory tone:

Hannoversche Allgemeine: "Do you still rule out Christian Meyer as agriculture minister?"

Bernd Althusmann: "I'd feel much more comfortable regarding Lower Saxony, a state characterized by agriculture, if there would be a change of course in this policy area. However, I will not make a recommendation in the current situation. It's not that Mr Meyer did everything wrong on matters of consumer protection or animal welfare. I believe there were verbal excesses on both sides that created deep rifts between the CDU and the Greens, but eventually, that doesn't mean we don't have common positions on consumer or nature protection. Ultimately, it's important to me that our farmers receive more recognition. The CDU is very open to a rationality-oriented agriculture. Regarding this, Mr Meyer, too, might reconsider if the strong polarization in the past years was necessary."
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« Reply #3038 on: October 24, 2017, 12:14:33 AM »
« Edited: October 24, 2017, 12:33:36 AM by Ἅιδης »

Today the 19th Bundestag is being constituted.

Furthermore, a debate has been raised within the SPD; current faction leader Thomas Oppermann is to become one of the new deputies of the Bundestag president - if it was up to the party leadership. Two other Social Democrats, however, have also announced their bid for that position: current deputy Ulla Schmidt and faction manager Christine Lambrecht. The crucial vote is set to take place on Monday. The Presidium of the Bundestag is currently occupied by two SPD members, which has now after the lousy election results been reduced to one.

Yesterday, former faction leader Thomas Oppermann was nominated as vice president of the Bundestag by the SPD faction with 61% - after Schmidt and Lambrecht had already withdrawn their candidacies!!!

The most interesting deputy election will result from Albrecht Glaser's nomination. The AfD politician is said to be staunchly Islamophobic, which is likely to lead to his defeat. He used to be a CDU member from 1970 till 2012. From 1997 till 2010, he was the city treasurer of Frankfurt am Main.
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« Reply #3039 on: October 24, 2017, 04:02:41 AM »

The constituting session of the 19th Bundestag has just been opened.
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« Reply #3040 on: October 24, 2017, 04:36:10 AM »

The most interesting deputy election will result from Albrecht Glaser's nomination. The AfD politician is said to be staunchly Islamophobic, which is likely to lead to his defeat. He used to be a CDU member from 1970 till 2012. From 1997 till 2010, he was the city treasurer of Frankfurt am Main.

Glaser will of course repeatedly lose and the AfD will of course cry havoc and lament how totally unfairly they* are treated by the other parties.

* (and only they, because prior to the foundation of the AfD injustice and unfairness didn't exist at all in Germany... the AfD was basically founded with the express purpose of introducing someone who's treated unfairly. That the Greens didn't have a vice president of their own for the first eleven years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That the PDS didn't have a vice president for the first eight years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That Left Party vice presidential candidate Lothar Bisky didn't manage to get elected in 2005 and that the Left Party's vice presidential post then remained vacant for half a year until Petra Pau was elected for the Left Party in his place didn't actually happen.)
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« Reply #3041 on: October 24, 2017, 08:46:27 AM »

The most interesting deputy election will result from Albrecht Glaser's nomination. The AfD politician is said to be staunchly Islamophobic, which is likely to lead to his defeat. He used to be a CDU member from 1970 till 2012. From 1997 till 2010, he was the city treasurer of Frankfurt am Main.

Glaser will of course repeatedly lose and the AfD will of course cry havoc and lament how totally unfairly they* are treated by the other parties.

* (and only they, because prior to the foundation of the AfD injustice and unfairness didn't exist at all in Germany... the AfD was basically founded with the express purpose of introducing someone who's treated unfairly. That the Greens didn't have a vice president of their own for the first eleven years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That the PDS didn't have a vice president for the first eight years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That Left Party vice presidential candidate Lothar Bisky didn't manage to get elected in 2005 and that the Left Party's vice presidential post then remained vacant for half a year until Petra Pau was elected for the Left Party in his place didn't actually happen.)

To be fair AfD got 12.6%. That's higher than any result the Greens or Linke/PDS ever got. In fact it is the third best result for a third party ever, only behind FDP's 14.9% in 2009 and FDP's 12.9% in 1961.

I think that getting 12.6% of the vote, higher than any other party except the big 2 and the 3rd best result for a third party entitles them to get a vicepresident of their own, and one that the AfD itself likes.

Also, I heard that the initial speech was not given by the oldest parlamentarian (which would have been an AfD one) but by the one with most seniority?

That's terrible. The German Bundestag shouldn't change its rules to marginalize the AfD. It should be treated like any other party.
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« Reply #3042 on: October 24, 2017, 08:51:59 AM »

Here are the results of the elections to the president and to the vice presidents of the Bundestag:

Wolfgang Schäuble (CDU) - President
Yes 501
No 173
Abstain 30
Invalid 1

Hans-Peter Friedrich (CSU) - Vice president
Yes 507
No 112
Abstain 82
Invalid 2

Wolfgang Kubicki (FDP) - Vice president
Yes 489
No 100
Abstain 111
Invalid 3

Claudia Roth (Greens) - Vice president
Yes 489
No 166
Abstain 45
Invalid 3

Petra Pau (Left) - Vice president
Yes 456
No 187
Abstain 54
Invalid 6

Thomas Oppermann (SPD) - Vice president
Yes 396
No 220
Abstain 81
Invalid 6

Albrecht Glaser (AfD) - Vice president
Yes 115
No 550
Abstain 26
Invalid 12


LOL @ Oppermann for having been beaten by the FDP, Green, and Left candidates.

Now entering the second ballot on Albrecht Glaser.
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« Reply #3043 on: October 24, 2017, 08:54:54 AM »

I think that getting 12.6% of the vote, higher than any other party except the big 2 and the 3rd best result for a third party entitles them to get a vicepresident of their own, and one that the AfD itself likes.

The AfD is entitled to a vice president. But in a democracy, no one is entitled to get elected.

Lothar Bisky learned that the hard way back in 2005.
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« Reply #3044 on: October 24, 2017, 09:31:36 AM »

Second ballot on Glaser:

Yes 123 (+8)
No 549 (-1)
Abstain 24 (-2)
Invalid 1 (-11)

Now entering the third ballot.
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« Reply #3045 on: October 24, 2017, 10:12:00 AM »
« Edited: October 24, 2017, 10:26:04 AM by Great Again: The War on Football »

Third ballot

Yes 114 (-9)
No 545 (-4)
Abstain 26 (+2)
Invalid 0 (-1)

Election of a AfD vice president is postponed to a later date.


What will happen during the rest of the day:

- Merkel and her cabinet are formally dismissed by the president (even though they'll remain in office in an acting capacity, except for Schäuble who's now President of the Bundestag).

- CDU/CSU, FDP, and Greens meet for a third time for exploratory talks on forming a coalition. Today's topic: Finance, taxes, and budget. In an effort to troll Merkel and Lindner, Jürgen Trittin - one of the informal leaders of the Green's left wing - was named head of the Greens  negotiation team on finacne.
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Sozialliberal
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« Reply #3046 on: October 24, 2017, 02:29:44 PM »
« Edited: October 24, 2017, 02:43:06 PM by Sozialliberal »

The most interesting deputy election will result from Albrecht Glaser's nomination. The AfD politician is said to be staunchly Islamophobic, which is likely to lead to his defeat. He used to be a CDU member from 1970 till 2012. From 1997 till 2010, he was the city treasurer of Frankfurt am Main.

Glaser will of course repeatedly lose and the AfD will of course cry havoc and lament how totally unfairly they* are treated by the other parties.

* (and only they, because prior to the foundation of the AfD injustice and unfairness didn't exist at all in Germany... the AfD was basically founded with the express purpose of introducing someone who's treated unfairly. That the Greens didn't have a vice president of their own for the first eleven years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That the PDS didn't have a vice president for the first eight years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That Left Party vice presidential candidate Lothar Bisky didn't manage to get elected in 2005 and that the Left Party's vice presidential post then remained vacant for half a year until Petra Pau was elected for the Left Party in his place didn't actually happen.)

To be fair AfD got 12.6%. That's higher than any result the Greens or Linke/PDS ever got. In fact it is the third best result for a third party ever, only behind FDP's 14.9% in 2009 and FDP's 12.9% in 1961.

I think that getting 12.6% of the vote, higher than any other party except the big 2 and the 3rd best result for a third party entitles them to get a vicepresident of their own, and one that the AfD itself likes.

Also, I heard that the initial speech was not given by the oldest parlamentarian (which would have been an AfD one) but by the one with most seniority?

That's terrible. The German Bundestag shouldn't change its rules to marginalize the AfD. It should be treated like any other party.

In this office, Glaser would not speak for the AfD, he would speak for the whole of the Bundestag.

There is substantial doubt whether Glaser's views are compatible with our constitution, namely the part about religious freedom.

On 18th April 2017, Glaser made a speech at an AfD party convention, in which he said:
"Islam itself is a construct that does not recognize or respect religious freedom. Where it is in charge, it nips religious freedom in the bud. If you treat a fundamental right like that, the fundamental right should be removed from you."

Islam is a controversial religion, and I agree that many of its proponents hold despicable views, but I still understand why someone like Glaser would be unsuitable for this office.

Nahles, the chairwoman of the SPD parliamentary group, said she had written a letter to Glaser before the constituiting session, in which she had urged Glaser to take a stand on his controversial remarks. However,  Glaser did not reply, according to Nahles.  

If the AfD are unable to put up a candidate that is trusted by the majority of Bundestag members, they'll have to go without this office. It's as simple as that.
-------------------------------
Personally, I think it makes more sense that the initial speech is delivered by the parlamentarian with the most political experience. It should have always been like that.
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« Reply #3047 on: October 24, 2017, 03:27:52 PM »

The most interesting deputy election will result from Albrecht Glaser's nomination. The AfD politician is said to be staunchly Islamophobic, which is likely to lead to his defeat. He used to be a CDU member from 1970 till 2012. From 1997 till 2010, he was the city treasurer of Frankfurt am Main.

Glaser will of course repeatedly lose and the AfD will of course cry havoc and lament how totally unfairly they* are treated by the other parties.

* (and only they, because prior to the foundation of the AfD injustice and unfairness didn't exist at all in Germany... the AfD was basically founded with the express purpose of introducing someone who's treated unfairly. That the Greens didn't have a vice president of their own for the first eleven years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That the PDS didn't have a vice president for the first eight years they sat in parliament didn't actually happen. That Left Party vice presidential candidate Lothar Bisky didn't manage to get elected in 2005 and that the Left Party's vice presidential post then remained vacant for half a year until Petra Pau was elected for the Left Party in his place didn't actually happen.)

To be fair AfD got 12.6%. That's higher than any result the Greens or Linke/PDS ever got. In fact it is the third best result for a third party ever, only behind FDP's 14.9% in 2009 and FDP's 12.9% in 1961.

I think that getting 12.6% of the vote, higher than any other party except the big 2 and the 3rd best result for a third party entitles them to get a vicepresident of their own, and one that the AfD itself likes.

Also, I heard that the initial speech was not given by the oldest parlamentarian (which would have been an AfD one) but by the one with most seniority?

That's terrible. The German Bundestag shouldn't change its rules to marginalize the AfD. It should be treated like any other party.

In this office, Glaser would not speak for the AfD, he would speak for the whole of the Bundestag.

There is substantial doubt whether Glaser's views are compatible with our constitution, namely the part about religious freedom.

On 18th April 2017, Glaser made a speech at an AfD party convention, in which he said:
"Islam itself is a construct that does not recognize or respect religious freedom. Where it is in charge, it nips religious freedom in the bud. If you treat a fundamental right like that, the fundamental right should be removed from you."

Islam is a controversial religion, and I agree that many of its proponents hold despicable views, but I still understand why someone like Glaser would be unsuitable for this office.

Nahles, the chairwoman of the SPD parliamentary group, said she had written a letter to Glaser before the constituiting session, in which she had urged Glaser to take a stand on his controversial remarks. However,  Glaser did not reply, according to Nahles.  

If the AfD are unable to put up a candidate that is trusted by the majority of Bundestag members, they'll have to go without this office. It's as simple as that.
-------------------------------
Personally, I think it makes more sense that the initial speech is delivered by the parlamentarian with the most political experience. It should have always been like that.

Yeah, but it should still be someone the AfD agrees to, not just some random guy picked by the other parties that just happens to be from AfD. A compromise candidate.

As for the initial speech, I agree that the politician with the most experience is better than simply the oldest one, but still, they shouldn't have changed the rules just because the oldest guy happened to be from AfD (unless AfD consented to that which I guess it didn't).

Maybe for the 2021, 2025 or an election when AfD is integrated into German politics (like Linke had to do) or drops out of parliament it would be acceptable, but marginalizing them is not a good strategy.

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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #3048 on: October 24, 2017, 04:28:11 PM »

Why? Ordinary people don't pay attention to parliamentary procedure.
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« Reply #3049 on: October 25, 2017, 03:06:49 AM »
« Edited: October 25, 2017, 03:32:46 AM by Great Again: The War on Football »

Yeah, but it should still be someone the AfD agrees to, not just some random guy picked by the other parties that just happens to be from AfD. A compromise candidate.

It's still up to the AfD to nominate a vice-presidential candidate. However, if they want to see their vice-presidential candidate get elected, they need to nominate someone who is capable of winning a majority of votes in the Bundestag.

This time they didn't nominate such a person and they possibly did so on purpose, because they considered the political gain from not winning the vice-presidential election to be higher than the gain from successfully getting a vice president elected.

At the end of the day, you simply can't force a member of the Bundestag to vote in favour of a certain candidate.... which is apparently what you're proposing.
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