Enviro-terrorists arrested in Canada

[RogueBeaver]

Now they've seized media equipment and vehicles.

[Leftbehind]

[DC Al Fine]

Don't you just love the mob.

Someone wake me when they start guillotining people.

[Hatman 🍁]

I'm a moderate hero on environmental issues?  No.  I just don't arbitrarily hold the rights of some natives in Atlantic Canada to be any higher than those of oppressed people who have few rights in places like Saudi Arabia... the place where you'll be getting your oil products instead of from at home in Canada.

I think my view that the U.S. and Canada should develop domestic energy resources so they aren't relying on imports from truly awful nations is a good one.  Perhaps you don't have the foresight to think like that.  I do.

I have just patently rejected this nirvana syndrome that greenies have:  That we should oppose any and all fossil fuel energy development and instead embrace expensive renewables that aren't efficient enough to stand up to market forces yet (unless you insist that the CO2 emitted is going to lead to catastrophic global warming... something that appears to be less and less likely, as per the latest report by the IPCC)

I have a major crude pipeline less than 1000 feet from my house that carries gunky crude from the tar sands of Alberta to the Twin Ports (Duluth/Superior).  It would be quite bad if that pipeline burst and began pouring oil all over near my house.  So don't assume you know what my views are or why they are what they are or what level of fear I have regarding environmental issues.  Being afraid, especially in an irrational sense, is problematic.  If the locals have a legitimate grievance (that their land might be irreversibly destroyed), then they should engage in a peaceful protest and exhaust legal channels to stop it.  Barring that, they should try to get the public behind them.  Being violent and obstinate and scared won't garner sympathy (except perhaps from you)

As for your supporting what they're doing... they are throwing molotov cocktails at police officers who had a court order to clear the camp.  That does harm.  You enable such behavior by supporting it.

They likely don't recognize the authority of the police. They see them as an invading force. What do you do when an army invades your land? You defend it. From their mindset, it is completely justifiable.

As for oil, I can sympathize with wanting to get it from North America, but really we should as a society try to move away from oil dependence. It's only going to get more expensive. And you know what? There's still lots of room to go, as US gas prices are far below Europe, for example.

I'm not suggesting we kick the bottle (barrel?) quite yet, but we need to move in that direction. Believe climate change or not (I know you're a skeptic), but know one can deny oil is running out. We need to invest more in renewable energy, not it in things like fracking.

[MaxQue]

In my opinion, I'm not totally opposed to fracking.

Fracking techiniques improved since ten years and they continue to improve. I want us to wait until the toxicity risks are more reduced. There is no reason to rush, the hydrocarbons prices won't drop in the future.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Earl:

I think our dependence on oil should be reduced with different policies than those being pushed by the Greens.  We shouldn't be reducing it at the supplier end... but at the consumer end.

Strict fuel efficiency standards that inexorably rise for transportation.

Strict electricity efficiency standards for appliances, including at the production.

Something surprising happened after the economic downturn:  Americans (and I'd also assume Canadians since we're fairly similar) have been using less oil.

I don't argue for opening the flood gates to cheap energy.  That encourages waste.  But let's get more of our oil from here at home with an eye towards stable prices, while energy costs for people are also stable or decline due to using less of it.

Blaming our problems on oil companies is so the wrong way to go about it.  All that is is us shifting blame, which should be on ourselves, onto oil companies... a scapegoat.

Use the market to increase energy efficiency.  Use government funding to continue research into making renewables cheaper and competitive.

Don't blow your load 10 years too early and waste a significant chunk of GDP putting up inefficient windmills and solar panels that will reduce our ability to implement even better, cost effective renewables later.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

But blockading roads and throwing molotov cocktails at police officers won't garner any sympathy.

Throwing those molotov cocktails is what made this into national/international news in the first place. Without it, we probably wouldn't be even aware that these protests are occurring. It even sparked a debate on this message board whether their actions are morally justified or not.

So I'd argue that throwing molotov cocktails already worked in their favour by making people aware of the situation.

That's only if it makes them both aware and sympathetic.  While they did the first, they certainly did not accomplish the latter.  Quite the reverse in fact.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Also:  I don't know the story of the specific tribe you're referring to.  But seeing police as an invading force doesn't garner sympathy from me.  White people massacred indians... what they did was unconscionable and unforgivable.  People throughout the world continue to be massacred by truly evil people (including by the U.S. in some cases).

But these people aren't entitled to the land.  They are entitled to preserving their cultural heritage and keeping their history alive by passing it down to their children.  They are not entitled to land their ancestors lost, just as African Americans aren't entitled to land in west Africa if they were to go back there.  

I mean... surely you must understand that perspective.  Are Jews entitled to have what is modern day Israel?  It was their historic home.  

This idea that we should somehow give the land back to Natives or give them special treatment beyond what was outlined in the treaties is ridiculous.  If they are Canadian citizens (or American citizens) and live normal, modern lives like everyone else driving cars and heating their homes with gas and cooking on electric stoves... they have to accept the authority of the police and the judicial system.

If they want to change that system, as they have a right to want to, then they should do what I outlined in a previous post:  Peacefully protest, be persistent about it, exhaust legal channels, and find effective ways to get the public at large behind them in their effort.

Frankenburger brought up that their violence made this an international story.  Sure it did.  But it probably garnered a negative response from most people.  And while it might have given them short term attention, it will ultimately hurt their efforts in the future.

Edit:  One more thing.  I do sympathize with groups that use civil disobedience in cases where they are being morally wronged.  If this drilling activity really would irreversibly destroy the land, using peaceful civil disobedience is an effective tool that is quite good at gaining sympathy from others.  Blockading the road is such an example.  But while the police should not use violence at all against these people.. neither should they use violence when confronted by the police.  They should block the road until removed by the police.  And then they should go back and block the road again.  And again.  And again.  If they feel that strongly about it.

Morals are universal and are not subject to majority approval.  But violence is never an answer.