Italian Elections and Politics 2018: Yellow Tide
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  Italian Elections and Politics 2018: Yellow Tide
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Author Topic: Italian Elections and Politics 2018: Yellow Tide  (Read 291657 times)
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CrabCake
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« Reply #1200 on: December 29, 2017, 07:24:49 AM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/berlusconi-woes-voters-tax-breaks-pet-owners-basic-income-italians/

Berlusconi woos voters with tax breaks for pet owners and a basic income for all Italians

What is funny is that it is Berlusconi (and also M5S) that are coming out with "free free free !!"  type schemes and it is the PD that is asking "how to pay for all this", reversing the traditional "Right-Left" paradigm. 

Not traditional for Italy.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1201 on: December 29, 2017, 09:08:49 AM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/berlusconi-woes-voters-tax-breaks-pet-owners-basic-income-italians/

Berlusconi woos voters with tax breaks for pet owners and a basic income for all Italians

What is funny is that it is Berlusconi (and also M5S) that are coming out with "free free free !!"  type schemes and it is the PD that is asking "how to pay for all this", reversing the traditional "Right-Left" paradigm. 

Not traditional for Italy.

Yeah, the Italian "left" has always been more concerned with muh fiscal responsibility than the right.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1202 on: December 29, 2017, 02:50:01 PM »

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/berlusconi-woes-voters-tax-breaks-pet-owners-basic-income-italians/

Berlusconi woos voters with tax breaks for pet owners and a basic income for all Italians

What is funny is that it is Berlusconi (and also M5S) that are coming out with "free free free !!"  type schemes and it is the PD that is asking "how to pay for all this", reversing the traditional "Right-Left" paradigm. 

Not traditional for Italy.
Yeah, the Italian "left" has always been more concerned with muh fiscal responsibility than the right.

Let it never be forgotten that in comparatively objective policy terms Italy's two most left-wing governments were both DC ones headed by Andreotti roflmao. Admittedly the second of these was the one the PCI supported from the outside, but the first was a narrow right-wing coalition Grin
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Chickpeas
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« Reply #1203 on: December 30, 2017, 11:03:07 PM »

Was Renzi Prime Minister without holding a seat in either the Chamber of Deputies or the Senate?

If so, how was he able to function as Prime Minister without a seat in the Italian Parliament?
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1204 on: December 31, 2017, 07:53:17 AM »

Was Renzi Prime Minister without holding a seat in either the Chamber of Deputies or the Senate?

If so, how was he able to function as Prime Minister without a seat in the Italian Parliament?

Being in parliament is not a constitutional requirement for the PM in Italy, so that wasn't an issue.
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EPG
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« Reply #1205 on: December 31, 2017, 08:07:06 AM »

Renzi had no parliamentary seat. In the previous comparable case, Monti was given a seat in the Senate, but he didn't legally require a seat to become President of the Council. Ministers can participate in, or be obliged to participate in, parliamentary debates without a seat in parliament.
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mappix
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« Reply #1206 on: January 04, 2018, 03:19:21 AM »

Was Renzi Prime Minister without holding a seat in either the Chamber of Deputies or the Senate?

If so, how was he able to function as Prime Minister without a seat in the Italian Parliament?

Unfortunately it is one of the many flaws of the Italian Constitution. It favors the imposition of Prime Ministers without a real popular consensus (Monti, Renzi as latest examples) and contributes to a drift between institutions and a disaffected electoral body, with the negative outcomes we have been experiencing during these years. Governments are not elected of course, but the 1994-2011 period was marked by the custom of governments reflecting a majority coalition chosen through elections. This custom has now gone, replaced by post-electoral coalitions between opposing parties, with the perception of being ruled by "unelected" majorities.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #1207 on: January 04, 2018, 05:31:51 AM »

Was Renzi Prime Minister without holding a seat in either the Chamber of Deputies or the Senate?

If so, how was he able to function as Prime Minister without a seat in the Italian Parliament?

Unfortunately it is one of the many flaws of the Italian Constitution. It favors the imposition of Prime Ministers without a real popular consensus (Monti, Renzi as latest examples) and contributes to a drift between institutions and a disaffected electoral body, with the negative outcomes we have been experiencing during these years. Governments are not elected of course, but the 1994-2011 period was marked by the custom of governments reflecting a majority coalition chosen through elections. This custom has now gone, replaced by post-electoral coalitions between opposing parties, with the perception of being ruled by "unelected" majorities.

It's not a matter of "custom", it's a matter of whether the electoral system you use allows you to actually form cohesive majorities. The system used from 1993 to 2005 made it possible, and Renzi's proposed electoral/constitutional reform would have restored that, but since the referendum failed and the Constitutional Court threw out the runoff provision in the Italicum, we're stuck with an unworkable mess of an electoral system that will guarantee permanent "grand" coalitions.
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FrancoAgo
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« Reply #1208 on: January 04, 2018, 05:55:41 AM »



It's not a matter of "custom", it's a matter of whether the electoral system you use allows you to actually form cohesive majorities. The system used from 1993 to 2005 made it possible, and Renzi's proposed electoral/constitutional reform would have restored that, but since the referendum failed and the Constitutional Court threw out the runoff provision in the Italicum, we're stuck with an unworkable mess of an electoral system that will guarantee permanent "grand" coalitions.

actually the system in use in the 1994, 1996 and 2001 elections don't allow to form cohesive majorities, actually near no electoral system cad do this.
The system brought together not very homogeneous alliance and in '94 the Berlusconi's alliances had not majority in the Senate, he gained/bought it after the elections, in '96 the Prodi alliance not gained electoral majorities in neither chambers but worked a post election majority, only in the 2001 the Berlusconi alliance gained enough seats in both the chambers.
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mappix
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« Reply #1209 on: January 04, 2018, 12:41:57 PM »


It's not a matter of "custom", it's a matter of whether the electoral system you use allows you to actually form cohesive majorities. The system used from 1993 to 2005 made it possible, and Renzi's proposed electoral/constitutional reform would have restored that, but since the referendum failed and the Constitutional Court threw out the runoff provision in the Italicum, we're stuck with an unworkable mess of an electoral system that will guarantee permanent "grand" coalitions.

Well, custom is the original and historical source not only of law but also of social acceptance. The custom consisted in having PMs elected as members of parliament and governments reflecting majorities presented before voting and not post-electoral alliances among parties of opposing "blocks". When I try to explain post-vote coalitions are allowed, people feel they have been frauded, scammed by a dishonest alliance, hence the recurring raging phrase: "unelected government". Social (unwritten) acceptance is as important as written law when it comes to such important things as the legitimacy of a democratic practice/system, otherwise people turn to extremists or give up voting and reject the recognition of institutions and democracy altogether. It gets quite worrying. Sad
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FrancoAgo
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« Reply #1210 on: January 04, 2018, 07:24:44 PM »

Ciampi and Dini were not members of parliament and Monti was not a elected members of parliament so there is not a so custom.
Governments reflected majorities presented before voting was occasionally and happened only in the 2001, 2006 and 2008.
The point it's the heavy propaganda in favour to the false custom, and the complete ignorance of large part of electorate
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #1211 on: January 04, 2018, 09:07:29 PM »

So with LeU, do voters just vote for LeU or would they vote for the various parties? The way Wikipedia presents it, it's not a coalition like the others, but I am not sure.
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FrancoAgo
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« Reply #1212 on: January 04, 2018, 09:25:47 PM »

So with LeU, do voters just vote for LeU or would they vote for the various parties? The way Wikipedia presents it, it's not a coalition like the others, but I am not sure.

just vote for LeU
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TheSaint250
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« Reply #1213 on: January 04, 2018, 09:28:55 PM »

Thanks
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mileslunn
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« Reply #1214 on: January 05, 2018, 12:53:18 AM »

So is it pretty much a foregone conclusion the centre-right will win, just whether they get a majority or not or could the Five star Movement or Democratic Party still have a chance.  Also my understanding is even if Berlusconi leads his coalition he cannot be PM, so who will be PM if his coalition wins?
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mappix
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« Reply #1215 on: January 05, 2018, 01:20:22 AM »

Ciampi and Dini were not members of parliament and Monti was not a elected members of parliament so there is not a so custom.
Governments reflected majorities presented before voting was occasionally and happened only in the 2001, 2006 and 2008.
The point it's the heavy propaganda in favour to the false custom, and the complete ignorance of large part of electorate
Voters may be ignorant, misinformed, but on election day they are always right, because that's how democracy works. The Dini cabinet, the Monti cabinet are affected by the same misperception because they came to power by substituting majorities that had previously come out of elections. My point is that perception is just as important as effective rules, because there will always be an emotional component to politics.

I hope to reach 20 posts so that I'll be allowed to post some maps. Cheesy
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FrancoAgo
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« Reply #1216 on: January 05, 2018, 03:26:38 AM »


Voters may be ignorant, misinformed, but on election day they are always right, because that's how democracy works. The Dini cabinet, the Monti cabinet are affected by the same misperception because they came to power by substituting majorities that had previously come out of elections. My point is that perception is just as important as effective rules, because there will always be an emotional component to politics.

I hope to reach 20 posts so that I'll be allowed to post some maps. Cheesy

Mappix i want help you to get the map quorum.
The elections of representation is only a small part how democracy works and imo is not a compulsory part, and the only elections of representation is away from a democracy.
There was not a majority come out of elections in 1994.
Pereception is important because can be easily manipulated todays more that same time ago
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #1217 on: January 05, 2018, 03:59:31 AM »

Does anyone know ?

Questions for Italian posters:

* How likely is it that the Right Bloc will form a government with M5S after the election, if they fail to win a majority of seats on their own ? What are the other most likely coalitions then ?

* What are the positions of the major Italian parties (or what did their representatives say in recent days) about ÖVP/FPÖ's proposal to offer Austrian citizenship to South Tyrolians ? I know that the right-wing Fratelli d'Italia spoke out against it, but what about the Democratic Party, the M5S, Lega etc. ?

Thx.
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mappix
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« Reply #1218 on: January 05, 2018, 04:29:13 AM »


Questions for Italian posters:

* How likely is it that the Right Bloc will form a government with M5S after the election, if they fail to win a majority of seats on their own ? What are the other most likely coalitions then ?

* What are the positions of the major Italian parties (or what did their representatives say in recent days) about ÖVP/FPÖ's proposal to offer Austrian citizenship to South Tyrolians ? I know that the right-wing Fratelli d'Italia spoke out against it, but what about the Democratic Party, the M5S, Lega etc. ?

Thx.

Forza Italia is against the policies of M5S, as of now a coalition seems unlikely. The most likely coalition is rumored to be FI+PD+minor opportunistic parties.

Giving that the illegal immigrants crisis has brought the relations between Italy and Austria to a minimum point I am surprised that most parties did not seem to care about this issue when it broke out. Anyways most Italians are fed up with the privileges enjoyed by Alto Adige, even in off-topic matters like the shaping of new electoral constituencies, and would even gladly get rid of it.
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Grand Wizard Lizard of the Klan
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« Reply #1219 on: January 05, 2018, 05:18:40 AM »

Will new electoral system help in consolidation of Italian political scene? I mean now we have a lot of neat electoral blocks without typical for Italy chaos so maybe it might evolve into something more (like permanent coalitions or sth)?
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mappix
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« Reply #1220 on: January 05, 2018, 05:33:25 AM »

Will new electoral system help in consolidation of Italian political scene? I mean now we have a lot of neat electoral blocks without typical for Italy chaos so maybe it might evolve into something more (like permanent coalitions or sth)?

Italy has already had similar situations in previous elections, some parties/politicians break away from their bloc after elections if there's convenience so I don't expect any consolidation. Keep in mind that 32% of the deputies and 43% of the senators have changed sides in these last 5 years (source OpenPolis) with subsequent distrust from the electorate.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #1221 on: January 05, 2018, 07:34:42 AM »


Questions for Italian posters:

* How likely is it that the Right Bloc will form a government with M5S after the election, if they fail to win a majority of seats on their own ? What are the other most likely coalitions then ?

* What are the positions of the major Italian parties (or what did their representatives say in recent days) about ÖVP/FPÖ's proposal to offer Austrian citizenship to South Tyrolians ? I know that the right-wing Fratelli d'Italia spoke out against it, but what about the Democratic Party, the M5S, Lega etc. ?

Thx.

Forza Italia is against the policies of M5S, as of now a coalition seems unlikely. The most likely coalition is rumored to be FI+PD+minor opportunistic parties.

Giving that the illegal immigrants crisis has brought the relations between Italy and Austria to a minimum point I am surprised that most parties did not seem to care about this issue when it broke out. Anyways most Italians are fed up with the privileges enjoyed by Alto Adige, even in off-topic matters like the shaping of new electoral constituencies, and would even gladly get rid of it.

Thanks.

Didn't know that Italians are fed up with South Tyrolian autonomy ...

They should actually be happy about it, because South Tyrol is the wealthiest and most advanced region in Italy because of that autonomy statute and they (together with Trient) are shoveling billions of €s in surplus money to Rome every year to prop up the weaker Center of Italy and especially the South.
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mappix
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« Reply #1222 on: January 05, 2018, 01:14:34 PM »
« Edited: January 05, 2018, 01:16:28 PM by mappix »


Thanks.

Didn't know that Italians are fed up with South Tyrolian autonomy ...

They should actually be happy about it, because South Tyrol is the wealthiest and most advanced region in Italy because of that autonomy statute and they (together with Trient) are shoveling billions of €s in surplus money to Rome every year to prop up the weaker Center of Italy and especially the South.

The case you mentioned is a bit of a false myth really. These autonomous provinces manage to keep 90% of the taxes for themselves, and hostility comes a lot from Lombardy and Veneto, wealthy regions who have to contribute for a larger margin. Veneto especially has experienced the detachment of some municipalities that have joined the autonomous region of Friuli to get a better fiscal regime. The center of Italy is not that weak as well.

The fiscal reasons for hostility are mixed with historical reasons, as you probably know some South Tyroleans are hostile towards Italians for the forced annexation of their land after the Austrian defeat in WWI, the fascist prosecutions under Mussolini and some restrictions on cultural identity even in the after-war period. Some Italians are hostile towards South Tyroleans for the racist contempt they experience from them, the terrorist attacks that prompted the Democrazia Cristiana to grant an unprecedented autonomy to this province in order to make violence cease, and the fact that many terrorists are celebrated in local TVs and streets names as freedom fighters. I wonder what would happen if Italians celebrated fascist thugs in such ways. Some terrorists have escaped justice for the victims they made and are now living in Austria or Germany and are still involved in anti-Italian activities.

Having experienced this hostility on myself as a tourist there, but also having met lovely people from South Tyrol, I have to say the fiscal autonomy is partly put to very good use to provide excellent services, but also partly wasted in a very "Italian" way. Some separatist South Tyrolean politicians are even more Italian than they will ever admit Cheesy . Examples of those "Italian political customs" are: the outrageous retributions of local politicians - the President of the Autonomous Province of Bolzano/Bozen has a salary that matches the head of state's; the scandalous amount of local politicians' annuities despite recent cuts; the defense of those annuities, with a national debate sparkled when a South Tyrolean politician often contemptuous towards Italy, Eva Klotz - daughter of one of the aforementioned "freedom fighters" - defended her retribution funded not only by local but also national taxes; the practice of rigged public contracts to favor some local enterprises; the creation of useless administrative substructures for political reasons.

With a nationalist government in Austria I expect these local politicians to use the situation to get even more favorable deals, probably adding fuel to the fire.
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mappix
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« Reply #1223 on: January 05, 2018, 01:46:48 PM »

I also have to add that the issues of regional autonomies are a lot wider and the debate in Italy is not only focused on South Tyrol but also other regions.
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parochial boy
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« Reply #1224 on: January 05, 2018, 02:03:19 PM »

I also have to add that the issues of regional autonomies are a lot wider and the debate in Italy is not only focused on South Tyrol but also other regions.

Speaking of which; are Veneto and Lombardy still trying to push for their own autonomy? Or were the referendums last October as pointless as they seemed?
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