New York City Council raises age to buy cigarettes to 21

[Ban my account ffs!]

You know... I hate smoking.  The smell is truly noxious... and it makes you smell like an ashtray, makes your breath smell like death... and frankly it's annoying when you have to get sh**t done and people take smoke breaks every hour.

But raising the buying age in one city is dumb.  If you are an adult and you smoke.... then you should be able to smoke on sidewalks or in your home or in your car.

The cigarette smoke on the sidewalk isn't any less offensive than the disgusting smelling steam that billows out of manholes all over NYC.  I'd like to see Bloomberg tackle that.  In fact, in large cities... cigarette smoke is the least of my worries... there are unwholesome smells coming at you from every direction from various exhaust fumes.

[Oak Hills]

America---where people are assumed to be too stupid to know that cigarettes are harmful unless big brother tells them they are.

Yeah, people who smoke know the risks and should be allowed to make their own choices.

Not like cigarette smoke causes harm to people around them or anything

lol

America---where people are assumed to be too stupid to know that cigarettes are harmful...

Fixed.

Wait, why is it "America"......isn't our smoking rate far below the rest of the planet?  (too lazy to google it)

Don't know.  I was just quoting and doing a little fixing.  But we do have the trifecta in America substance abuse, terrible diet, and lack of exercise.  All contribute in a big way to our healthcare crisis.  I personally don't care if someone wants to go off onto an island and smoke till they die an early miserable death.  But please pay back the tax payer for the school we wasted on you and stay as far away from our insurances pools and hospitals as possible.  I am tired of footing the bill so libertarians can be "free."

Thank you, Link.

But for the millionth time, plenty of people don't start smoking because it's cool (although it certainly is).

No.

[Deus Naturae]

And no one cares about the "right to smoke cigarettes."

The reason people shouldn't be prohibited from smoking cigarettes isn't because there's a "right to smoke cigarettes," it's because of the fact that, if nothing else, everyone owns their own body, and thus has the right to do what they will with it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The problem I have with tobacco that makes it so much different from other drugs is it's so pointless. It just makes you smell bad and kills your lungs. That's it. No cool highs or hallucinations or nice effects from it. Get high all you inksing want and I don't care but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to smoke cigarettes. The only reason people smoke is because of marketing and making it "cool" to get them started and hooked. None of that would happen if it wasn't legal. The only reason there's a tobacco black market now is people who are already hooked want to buy it cheaper. There's a reason why in the last 40 years tobacco consumption has halved, while marijuana and alcohol consumption rates have basically remained the same.

There's a reason why the US and Canada have virtually identical marijuana and alcohol consumption rates, but in the US tobacco has about a 20% higher tobacco consumption rate. In addition to Canadian tobacco taxes being far higher than just about anywhere in the US the packaging and marketing is far more restricted.

[politicallefty]

I'm strongly supportive of public smoking bans and tobacco taxes, but this is too far for me. I strongly oppose the notion of making something illegal for just a subset of the adult population. If you want to ban cigarettes outright, make that case. Don't establish arbitrary restrictions. If someone is an adult, they should have [/i]all[/i] the rights and responsibilities. If you think otherwise, make the case for raising the age of adulthood to 21.

[tik 🪀✨]

The problem I have with tobacco that makes it so much different from other drugs is it's so pointless. It just makes you smell bad and kills your lungs. That's it. No cool highs or hallucinations or nice effects from it. Get high all you inksing want and I don't care but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to smoke cigarettes. The only reason people smoke is because of marketing and making it "cool" to get them started and hooked. None of that would happen if it wasn't legal. The only reason there's a tobacco black market now is people who are already hooked want to buy it cheaper. There's a reason why in the last 40 years tobacco consumption has halved, while marijuana and alcohol consumption rates have basically remained the same.

There's a reason why the US and Canada have virtually identical marijuana and alcohol consumption rates, but in the US tobacco has about a 20% higher tobacco consumption rate. In addition to Canadian tobacco taxes being far higher than just about anywhere in the US the packaging and marketing is far more restricted.

Most smartly governed, modern countries have decreasing rates of tobacco use. The US has a higher rate because the US sucks at that sort of thing.

As for your stylishly idiotic first paragraph, I'd submit to you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I said earlier that the psychoactive chemicals in tobacco are fascinating and I stand by that. They are subtle - and they can produce different characteristics based on the way you smoke. The real kicker is in conjunction with other drugs - a lot of people who only smoke when they drink alcohol can attest to that. Smoking when you've had weed can bring on awful dizziness and headspins, it can reinvigorate a waning high, or it can just make you feel as mellow as hell. A smoke on mushrooms or acid feels beautiful in ways you have to experience to understand (although that is true of most things one might do on shrooms or acid). A smoke after DXM can make you vomit or give your body high a new potency. I've never done coke but from observation smoking after doing a line is the best. A smoke after sex is a perfect combination for the little high you feel after orgasm. A smoke you have after waiting a long time for a cigarette feels completely different from the way a cigarette feels to a chain smoker. A smoke after your morning coffee is relaxing and stimulating simultaneously. If you think cigarettes have no value and don't do anything nice or fun you have no idea what you're talking about.

Don't get me wrong - I don't even like that I am a smoker. I do indeed hardly feel anything after I have a cigarette besides relief that I just had one. It is certainly some dumb sh**t that I can't seem to just not do it again. Nevertheless, the assertion that nicotine and friends in tobacco have zero real recreational use is just flat out wrong.

And Oak Hills, smoking as an activity is most certainly a "cool" thing. Sucking in plumes of visible gas from an object on fire mere inches from your face and exhaling clouds is a spectacle. The ramifications of smoking are the complete opposite of cool - but the singular act of smoking is quite neat. In fact, you saying that it isn't cool actually makes it even cooler - nice work. If smoking caused no real, bad health effects, you would probably agree with me. Even so, just because something is "cool" doesn't disqualify it from being absolutely awful.

[Cassius]

Ban cigarettes! Legalise marijuana!

'Ram a spliff up big tobacco's arse! Support small, independent Columbian business!'

[7,052,770]

Plus, and most importantly, responsible use of marijuana and alcohol (and even irresponsible use of marijuana and alcohol usually) do not result in a host of horrible health problems, up to and including dying of cancer. Supporting the former two but opposing the latter makes perfect sense.

marijuana and tobacco can't produce on-the-spot death via overdose, alcohol can.  it's very possible to live a fulfilling/productive life (whatever that means) while using tobacco daily, somewhat less so for marijuana, and much less so with alcohol.

Actually there was a recent case in Mississippi of a woman who dropped her cigarette, caught her clothes on fire and burned to death.  I believe she was old and morbidly obese, but it happened.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

The problem I have with tobacco that makes it so much different from other drugs is it's so pointless. It just makes you smell bad and kills your lungs. That's it. No cool highs or hallucinations or nice effects from it. Get high all you inksing want and I don't care but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to smoke cigarettes. The only reason people smoke is because of marketing and making it "cool" to get them started and hooked. None of that would happen if it wasn't legal. The only reason there's a tobacco black market now is people who are already hooked want to buy it cheaper. There's a reason why in the last 40 years tobacco consumption has halved, while marijuana and alcohol consumption rates have basically remained the same.

There's a reason why the US and Canada have virtually identical marijuana and alcohol consumption rates, but in the US tobacco has about a 20% higher tobacco consumption rate. In addition to Canadian tobacco taxes being far higher than just about anywhere in the US the packaging and marketing is far more restricted.

The percentage of people who are smokers is about the same, so I guess Canadian smokers don't use quite as much - suggesting taxes are more influential in the difference than marketing and packaging.

[King]

I used to care about this and then I turned 21.

[rejectamenta]

While I agree with you on this issue, I do find it pretty hilarious to see your words contrasted with your sig, given that it prominently features a lit cigarette in the hands of someone I'm quite confident you approve of.

Just sayin.

That even the most hardline prohibitionists subconsciously recognize smoking as an interesting thing that interesting people do is a powerful testament to the activity's coolness. Love it!

[Link]

So an 18 year old can cast a vote for New York's representation in the electoral college, die in a war, drive a car, purchase pornography, and be baptized, but not buy cigarettes?  What kind of topsy turvy world is Michael Bloomberg living in?

I can't go point by point and address your whole post but let me clarify something for all you non Americans about how our government was designed to work.  18 year olds do not choose the president.  And in general they do not choose the candidates for representative to the electoral college.  Party insiders choose the slate of the electoral college candidates.  The 18 year old chooses which slate of prechosen candidates they want.  Once the electoral college assembles the electoral representatives from New York have no obligation to do as the 18 year olds have asked.  And on multiple occasions representatives to the electoral college have cast votes for people who were not even running for president.

Lots of details get lost to the sands of time, but let me assure you the United States of America was set up with numerous controls in place for the express purpose of not allowing 18 year olds to pick the president.

[© tweed]

Plus, and most importantly, responsible use of marijuana and alcohol (and even irresponsible use of marijuana and alcohol usually) do not result in a host of horrible health problems, up to and including dying of cancer. Supporting the former two but opposing the latter makes perfect sense.

marijuana and tobacco can't produce on-the-spot death via overdose, alcohol can.  it's very possible to live a fulfilling/productive life (whatever that means) while using tobacco daily, somewhat less so for marijuana, and much less so with alcohol.

Actually there was a recent case in Mississippi of a woman who dropped her cigarette, caught her clothes on fire and burned to death.  I believe she was old and morbidly obese, but it happened.

the theory is that the 1911 Triangle fire started in this way as well.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Ban cigarettes! Legalise marijuana!

'Ram a spliff up big tobacco's arse! Support small, independent Columbian business!'

Colombia is where cocaine comes from, not pot. There's no point in smuggling pot all the way from Colombia when it can be grown quite easily domestically. Even in terms of weed imported to the US more comes from Canada than any other country.

[Boris]

The problem I have with tobacco that makes it so much different from other drugs is it's so pointless. It just makes you smell bad and kills your lungs. That's it. No cool highs or hallucinations or nice effects from it. Get high all you inksing want and I don't care but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to smoke cigarettes. The only reason people smoke is because of marketing and making it "cool" to get them started and hooked. None of that would happen if it wasn't legal. The only reason there's a tobacco black market now is people who are already hooked want to buy it cheaper. There's a reason why in the last 40 years tobacco consumption has halved, while marijuana and alcohol consumption rates have basically remained the same.

There's a reason why the US and Canada have virtually identical marijuana and alcohol consumption rates, but in the US tobacco has about a 20% higher tobacco consumption rate. In addition to Canadian tobacco taxes being far higher than just about anywhere in the US the packaging and marketing is far more restricted.

Most smartly governed, modern countries have decreasing rates of tobacco use. The US has a higher rate because the US sucks at that sort of thing.

As for your stylishly idiotic first paragraph, I'd submit to you that you don't know what the hell you're talking about. I said earlier that the psychoactive chemicals in tobacco are fascinating and I stand by that. They are subtle - and they can produce different characteristics based on the way you smoke. The real kicker is in conjunction with other drugs - a lot of people who only smoke when they drink alcohol can attest to that. Smoking when you've had weed can bring on awful dizziness and headspins, it can reinvigorate a waning high, or it can just make you feel as mellow as hell. A smoke on mushrooms or acid feels beautiful in ways you have to experience to understand (although that is true of most things one might do on shrooms or acid). A smoke after DXM can make you vomit or give your body high a new potency. I've never done coke but from observation smoking after doing a line is the best. A smoke after sex is a perfect combination for the little high you feel after orgasm. A smoke you have after waiting a long time for a cigarette feels completely different from the way a cigarette feels to a chain smoker. A smoke after your morning coffee is relaxing and stimulating simultaneously. If you think cigarettes have no value and don't do anything nice or fun you have no idea what you're talking about.

Don't get me wrong - I don't even like that I am a smoker. I do indeed hardly feel anything after I have a cigarette besides relief that I just had one. It is certainly some dumb sh**t that I can't seem to just not do it again. Nevertheless, the assertion that nicotine and friends in tobacco have zero real recreational use is just flat out wrong.

And Oak Hills, smoking as an activity is most certainly a "cool" thing. Sucking in plumes of visible gas from an object on fire mere inches from your face and exhaling clouds is a spectacle. The ramifications of smoking are the complete opposite of cool - but the singular act of smoking is quite neat. In fact, you saying that it isn't cool actually makes it even cooler - nice work. If smoking caused no real, bad health effects, you would probably agree with me. Even so, just because something is "cool" doesn't disqualify it from being absolutely awful.

But again, the only reason why you feel that way about cigarettes is because you're addicted to nicotine. BRTD isn't exactly a drug user, but if he were to take Molly tomorrow and have sex with someone, he'd probably be posting threads about the topic for the next couple of weeks. But if BRTD the non-smoker were to smoke a menthol (let alone a Red or something after having sex) he'd cough and likely be unable to actually finish the cigarette. Tobacco is an utterly pointless substance unless you're already addicted to it.

[tik 🪀✨]

I disagree with you, Boris, although you do have a point. Like I said in my rant, a cigarette four hours after your last cigarette feels completely different from the cigarette you had ten minutes after the last one. Addiction plays a key role in this - when your body craves something chemically, fulfilling that craving will signal chemicals of pleasure in the brain. The longer the wait, the better (or more relieving) it feels. Now that I am addicted, my daily living experience has subtly changed over time so that I live and cater to tobacco fixes - and said fixes barely ever noticeably affect me. I am ever so painfully aware that this is a hopeless and stupid way to live, but I always conveniently put off another quit attempt. That's addiction.

However, you don't have to be an addict to feel these effects. My most pleasurable tobacco experiences occurred when I wasn't addicted! So it was for me - there will always be curious, ignorant, reckless and indulgence-loving people out there who will try it despite the reputation it has (and that it brings you) and what obstacles are put in place by society. To then think that one becomes addicted to tobacco even though to begin with it's an "utterly pointless" activity with no noticeable effects sort of negates the idea that it's so dangerously addictive. If it weren't activating certain conscious and subconscious pleasure/reward and stimulative/depressive systems and chemical messengers in your brain, the hard mechanisms for addiction just wouldn't be there.

As always it's much more nuanced and difficult the than false dichotomies BRTD subscribes to. Nicotine on its own isn't really very addictive (it's the most addictive when combined with an MAOI, a few of which are present in tobacco smoke). Nicotine itself has a wide, complicated array of effects able to be experienced consciously or that take place deep within the body and mind. Some of these effects are actually very positive. That doesn't mean it's something one should try even once or that its use isn't something to bother trying to change. To me, "smoking tobacco has no effects" is something non-smokers tell themselves so that they don't give in to any temptation and get to feel smug and superior to smokers. Good for them. I'm just here to remind you that such ideas are ignorant and incorrect.

[Oak Hills]

While I agree with you on this issue, I do find it pretty hilarious to see your words contrasted with your sig, given that it prominently features a lit cigarette in the hands of someone I'm quite confident you approve of.

Just sayin.

That even the most hardline prohibitionists subconsciously recognize smoking as an interesting thing that interesting people do is a powerful testament to the activity's coolness. Love it!

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I do not find tobacco-smoking anything other than disgusting and unhealthy, and knowing that a person smokes or has smoked makes that person less cool. I realize people have different ideas of coolness, but, to me, smoking has no redeeming qualities at all. It is a drug, and it causes something of a high, but I see that as a bad thing. I have no desire to put my mind in an altered state. The only thing compelling about tobacco is the bizarreness of the idea of drying out the leaves of a plant that is otherwise useless, wrapping it up in paper, setting the dried leaves on fire, and blowing on it or even more disgusting, inhaling the smoke. It is fascinating that somebody actually thought of doing that in the first place, and that it is appealing to anyone. Furthermore, I see the cigarette as the epitome of everything that is wrong with our society, the hedonism, stupidity, and obsession with vaguely-defined "freedom", without giving a reason why freedom is important; and most disturbing of all our social problems, the idea that people would market such a horrible product to consumers, getting them addicted for the sake of their own greed, and that the public would not be clamoring for the banning of the product or the nationalization of the companies that make it.

I have pretty much the same opinion of most recreational drug use, and especially anything that is smoked.
[/end of rant]

[Link]

Ban cigarettes! Legalise marijuana!

'Ram a spliff up big tobacco's arse! Support small, independent Columbian business!'

Colombia is where cocaine comes from, not pot. There's no point in smuggling pot all the way from Colombia when it can be grown quite easily domestically. Even in terms of weed imported to the US more comes from Canada than any other country.

Do you have a link for those facts?  I'm pretty sure 50+% of drug cartel revenue in Mexico comes from pot.  ¡Ay, caramba!  That's a lot of decapitations just so some hippies can have some mellow fun!

Anyway that's why I'm for pot legalization.

[StateBoiler]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

are they going to ban alcohol next?

more innocent people are killed by alcohol than they are tobacco - if you use something you know is going to kill you, in my mind you don't have a right to complain, use willpower and stop - alcohol on the other hand is used by people that then drive and kill and maim people that did not drink any alcohol, also considering its usage by people that then hurt others or abuse family; the same situation doesn't exist for cigarettes

If New York City wants to make a serious claim that they are taking steps to protect public health, what steps should they make to heavily restrict the sale of alcohol?

[angus]

America---where people are assumed to be too stupid to know that cigarettes are harmful...

Fixed.

Wait, why is it "America"......isn't our smoking rate far below the rest of the planet?  (too lazy to google it)

Actually, our per capita cigarette consumption rate is somewhere on the high end.  Among OECD nations, ours is in the middle.  

Among US states, Pennsylvania is somewhere in the middle as well.  (Slightly higher per capita rate than the US overall.)  See for example, this report:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150779/Smoking-Rates-Remain-Highest-Kentucky-Lowest-Utah.aspx#2


I don't think laws such as these will have much effect on those either.

[Ebowed]

So an 18 year old can cast a vote for New York's representation in the electoral college, die in a war, drive a car, purchase pornography, and be baptized, but not buy cigarettes?  What kind of topsy turvy world is Michael Bloomberg living in?

I can't go point by point and address your whole post but let me clarify something for all you non Americans about how our government was designed to work.

My post was clearly in jest, in case you weren't aware that there is no legal prohibition on baptizing people under the age of 18, but for your information I am an American citizen and voter.

[Bacon King]

America---where people are assumed to be too stupid to know that cigarettes are harmful unless big brother tells them they are.

As Lief said, this is literally the truth.



This is sensible policy and I say that as someone who's been a regular smoker since age 20.

[Sbane]

Ban cigarettes! Legalise marijuana!

'Ram a spliff up big tobacco's arse! Support small, independent Columbian business!'

Lol you think weed comes from Colombia?

[Sbane]

Ban cigarettes! Legalise marijuana!

'Ram a spliff up big tobacco's arse! Support small, independent Columbian business!'

Colombia is where cocaine comes from, not pot. There's no point in smuggling pot all the way from Colombia when it can be grown quite easily domestically. Even in terms of weed imported to the US more comes from Canada than any other country.

Do you have a link for those facts?  I'm pretty sure 50+% of drug cartel revenue in Mexico comes from pot.  ¡Ay, caramba!  That's a lot of decapitations just so some hippies can have some mellow fun!

Anyway that's why I'm for pot legalization.

A lot may come from Mexico but certainly not Colombia. In places like California where medical marijuana has been legalized, a lot of the weed is grown domestically. Also a lot of crime organizations are also growing weed domestically. In any case, the fact that criminals grow weed is another argument for legalizing it.