France likely to ban prostitution next week

[Tender Branson]

The French parliament is debating a bill which would crack down on prostitution by imposing hefty fines on anyone paying for sex.

Prostitution is legal in France but until now only soliciting and pimping were illegal.

Under the bill, those caught paying for sex would face an initial fine of 1,500 euros (£1,250; $2,030).

Critics say the measure would drive the sex trade underground in a country which has up to 40,000 prostitutes.

The actress Catherine Deneuve is one of hundreds of celebrity figures urging the government to reconsider.

A similar resolution was voted through the National Assembly at the end of 2011, with the support of both left and right. It only failed to proceed because of lack of parliamentary time.

A new vote is scheduled for Wednesday. The ruling Socialists, with their large parliamentary majority, are expected to vote it through.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25118755

[opebo]

[Antonio the Sixth]

France so far had one of the worst legal systems, wherein prostitutes could actually be prosecuted for soliciting (even "passively" soliciting), but clients faced no risk whatsoever. Cracking down on clients is a step in the right direction, though it would be nice to also stop treating prostitutes as criminals.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm a little confused about this. 'Soliciting and pimping' are what's illegal, but according to Antonio until now the law has been targeted against prostitutes but not clients? What am I missing here?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm a little confused about this. 'Soliciting and pimping' are what's illegal, but according to Antonio until now the law has been targeted against prostitutes but not clients? What am I missing here?

Yes. Prostitutes, still today, can face charges for "hooking" (raccoler) clients. This definition was even extended in the early 2000s (upon Sarkozy's initiative) to include "passive" hooking, which is in practice a good way to criminalize all prostitutes. This is the sort of thing that definitely convinced me that Gustaf was right about France being a sexist sh*thole.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I'm a little confused about this. 'Soliciting and pimping' are what's illegal, but according to Antonio until now the law has been targeted against prostitutes but not clients? What am I missing here?

Yes. Prostitutes, still today, can face charges for "hooking" (raccoler) clients. This definition was even extended in the early 2000s (upon Sarkozy's initiative) to include "passive" hooking, which is in practice a good way to criminalize all prostitutes. This is the sort of thing that definitely convinced me that Gustaf was right about France being a sexist sh*thole.

That's...absolutely horrid. I hope that the law that's being proposed is a step in the right direction, i.e. towards a Scandinavian system rather than either an American or a Dutch one.

[opebo]

Guys, its the same either way - chase the women or the men, you drive the women and the men underground vis-a-vis this activity and lots more people die or get hurt.

[Cassius]

Even the French get something right once in a while. There is hope for humanity yet. This certainly goes someway to making up for the whole gay marriage malarkey.

[Cory]

Guys, its the same either way - chase the women or the men, you drive the women and the men underground vis-a-vis this activity and lots more people die or get hurt.

This. People get to have their petty "moral high ground" but meanwhile nothing is done to improve the lot of sex workers. Legalization & Regulation is the answer. Naive little quips about "changing our culture instead!" are nice but impractical. Prostitution will always exist, sorry but it's true.

[Franzl]

Saarbrücken is worried about greatly increased prostitution as a result of this.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Saarbrücken is worried about greatly increased prostitution as a result of this.

On the bright side it would be the first growth industry in the city for quite some time, no?

[Franzl]

Saarbrücken is worried about greatly increased prostitution as a result of this.

On the bright side it would be the first growth industry in the city for quite some time, no?

You do have a point there....

[Silent Hunter]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

[Tender Branson]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

But what happens now when every guy orders his prostitute to his home like food ordered from a Chinese restaurant ?

Do you think the police is able to "fine" those back-alley clients ?

Do you think the police can protect the prostitutes from being abused in their homes (which they now are more or less in the regulated brothels) ?

This is going to be a problem I think.

[opebo]

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

Why?  The net result is the same - extremely clandestine meetings where the prostitutes are in greater danger than is necessary.  Going to jail is not typically the biggest fear of prostitutes anyway.

[ingemann]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

Yes, but's better to go after neither. Prostitution exist, it will not disappear, better have it legal and well regulated.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

Yes, but's better to go after neither. Prostitution exist, it will not disappear, better have it legal and well regulated.

The most common criticism that I've seen of policies in which this is the case is that what promises to be 'well-regulated' prostitution on paper in many cases doesn't really turn out that way on the street, whereas with Scandinavian-type systems there's (at least allegedly) less of a gap between policy goals and actual policy results.

[ingemann]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

Yes, but's better to go after neither. Prostitution exist, it will not disappear, better have it legal and well regulated.

The most common criticism that I've seen of policies in which this is the case is that what promises to be 'well-regulated' prostitution on paper in many cases doesn't really turn out that way on the street, whereas with Scandinavian-type systems there's (at least allegedly) less of a gap between policy goals and actual policy results.

Seeing that there have been few examination of how well the Norwegian and Swedish ban on prostitution have worked, and the ones which have been have shown that it have worsen the position of prostitutes which are even less able to practice their trade in public (as customer are much sensible to threat of being arrested than prostitutes are), I think this will do little to help bridging the gap between goal and actual results. In fact this will do nothing to lower the number of prostitutes or increasing their safety, it will just make them easier victims and in worst case increase the number of traded prostitutes.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Until the late 1940s, France banned street prostitution but had legal brothels - this was changed under the "Marthe Richard" law, which I only really know about because it's a plot point in the first James Bond novel.

Really best to go after the clients than the the prostitutes.

Yes, but's better to go after neither. Prostitution exist, it will not disappear, better have it legal and well regulated.

The most common criticism that I've seen of policies in which this is the case is that what promises to be 'well-regulated' prostitution on paper in many cases doesn't really turn out that way on the street, whereas with Scandinavian-type systems there's (at least allegedly) less of a gap between policy goals and actual policy results.

Seeing that there have been few examination of how well the Norwegian and Swedish ban on prostitution have worked, and the ones which have been have shown that it have worsen the position of prostitutes which are even less able to practice their trade in public (as customer are much sensible to threat of being arrested than prostitutes are), I think this will do little to help bridging the gap between goal and actual results. In fact this will do nothing to lower the number of prostitutes or increasing their safety, it will just make them easier victims and in worst case increase the number of traded prostitutes.

How so, exactly? To the contrary, I'd think that if a prostitute has the possibility to denounce her clients and pimps, this can put her on a much stronger position against potential abuses and mistreatment.

[opebo]

How so, exactly? To the contrary, I'd think that if a prostitute has the possibility to denounce her clients and pimps, this can put her on a much stronger position against potential abuses and mistreatment.

Are you kidding?  You know what happens to rats in the underworld??

[ingemann]

How so, exactly? To the contrary, I'd think that if a prostitute has the possibility to denounce her clients and pimps, this can put her on a much stronger position against potential abuses and mistreatment.

Yes people would think so, it's why it's a goodf idea to see how it have worked in Norway and Sweden, because funny enough it have not worked that way. But let ignore that and just make symbolic feel good laws based on things we really want to believe.

The point is that neither prostitutes have a interest in the client being caught before the transaction, afterward if a prostitute try to denounce her client or pimp it's word against word, and good luck to the prostitute who try to sell her pimp out to the police, if she's lucky she just get beaten to an inch of her life.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I see why the effect of such measures wouldn't be as effective a theoretically possible, but what I can't see is in which way it could make things worse, at worst the conditions would be the same.

As for the actual effect of the Swedish laws, I've heard conflicting reports on this and you'll forgive me for not accepting your conclusions a priori.

[Zanas]

What you need to decrease the number of prostitutes is actual jobs that can actually pay you a decent living, and actual integration that can actually pay you serenity. Those two are never gonna be provided by this government, not with Sapin and Valls in charge of these. So nothing will change for the best, and chances are it will make things worse.

[opebo]

What you need to decrease the number of prostitutes is actual jobs that can actually pay you a decent living,

That's not going to eliminate prostitution, though it would likely increase the price and somewhat reduce the number of providers.  The demand for prostitutes will always be huge, simply because a very large minority of men can't get sex any other way, and many of them will be willing to pay a very high price for this service.

The typical result of 'development' in an economy (theoretically, 'higher wages') is that men still visit prostitutes, but simply pay much more and go less often.  But the basic need is still there and will not go away.

[ingemann]

I see why the effect of such measures wouldn't be as effective a theoretically possible, but what I can't see is in which way it could make things worse, at worst the conditions would be the same.

As for the actual effect of the Swedish laws, I've heard conflicting reports on this and you'll forgive me for not accepting your conclusions a priori.

I don't think you take my word, but I would suggest that you read up on the results. As someones living just across the Sound from Sweden, we have been very interested in the Swedish experiments, but what we have seen we haven't been impressed with, and while there exist a lot article on the subjects, the one I have seen have been in Danish.