France likely to ban prostitution next week

[Peeperkorn]

The prostitution-as-rape crowd have obviously never participated in the practice.  Guys, you'll find that 'on the ground' its really more the poor customer who gets screwed: the provider typically exerts nearly all the control over what happens and how, and limits the customer to the most minimal of services.

In rural Uruguay is normal to have your "debut" with a good prostitute.

At my 16 I went to the local prostíbulo with some friends and when my father knew about it he told me peacefully and give me an Okay sign and later the "protect yourself" speech.

Montevideo and higher classes are more taboo in the telling, but my first year in the most poshy college finished in watching (and participating...I'm gay but not stupid) in a payed lesbian orgy show.

I'm not lying.

Anyway, I've also see the "dark side" of the issue. For example, at my 20th birthday my friends with their fancy car stopped in front of a street prostitute. As I told you I'm not stupid but was already a closet gay, so I didn't want it and we just follow driving. The girl threw some rocks to the car crying. Obviously she was doing it for necessity.

You and your friends are really classy.

Which one of my group of friends? There are three in the thread you quoted.

Please, tell me so I ask them to come, make some maps and enjoy the real life.

[Beet]

Oh, thanks. The reason I said that is, if a woman (or man, since there are lots of gay sex workers; but let's say woman for the sake of discussion) sex worker has no other option between her sex work and being unemployed, and thus losing her living, is that not coercive? Coercion that creates an "option" between two outcomes, one of which is extremely and unusually bad, is recognized as a form of coercion. Similarly, if a pimp tricks a woman into addiction to some substance which literally alters the chemicals in her mind so that any human being would need to keep consuming this substance, does such a person still have real choice? And similarly, if pimps threaten to beat or kill someone unless they have sex for money, that is coercive. In the last case the John merely completes the act and turns it sexual. In the former cases, although the John is not responsible for the coercion, he is exploiting it to have access to 'sex' with the woman who otherwise would not consent.It is difficult for even a well intentioned John to avoid this unless he thoroughly knows his prostitute, knows that she has good other options, which is difficult given the typically short term nature of the encounters.

Sorry to cherry pick but it's easier to answer this way.  Bolded points by the numbers:

1) There are a lot of people who have lost their job but haven't turned to prostitution.  There are other options.  It's a choice and one that brings about more money than working a WalMart, for sure.  So I'd call it a choice, not coersvie.

That depends on the person. There are people out there who can't even get low wage jobs. I don't think it's too helpful to sit here and try to speculate on everyone's possible financial situation. What's clear enough is that there are days when you really don't want to go to work, but you have to, because if not you will not be able to pay the rent.

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The john is the one who motivates the pimp's behavior. The pimp wouldn't do what he does without the money from the john.

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Right.

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I never said the john is a rapist, but I think the john mentality is to turn a blind eye towards the reality of what they are doing. A prostitute's job is actress, she is supposed to pretend to enjoy it, etc. create a fantasy for the john, when in reality she may be drug addicted or controlled by a pimp (who takes most of her earnings).

[opebo]

I can't imagine anyone willingly entering the "profession."

Are you kidding?  Its big money and very easy.  Beats low-wage employment.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Horrible country. 

Good food though, and they used to be a paradise for prostitution during much of the 19th century through the 1930s or so...

So they became a bunch of nazis about it in 1940 or so?

[Peeperkorn]

I can't imagine anyone willingly entering the "profession."

Are you kidding?  Its big money and very easy.  Beats low-wage employment.

Exactly.

And prostitutes don't have to be objects, you can try talk with them about "Being and Time" like with everyone's neighbour. You pay for the time of being with him/her (obviously this thing in a normal bourdel is kind of timed)....but believe me, you won't never bore a prostitute and she/he will never get bored. "That were the 25 minutes, I'm sorry lad, but it's time"

And that's all, there's nothing inherently ABNORMAL in being a prostitute or stay some time with a prostitute or talk with him/her about Heidegger. You just pay for the time of another person. Guess I've just re discovered Anthropologic Marxism? Whoops. Surprise: everyone's a bitch in today's society.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Horrible country. 

Good food though, and they used to be a paradise for prostitution during much of the 19th century through the 1930s or so...

So they became a bunch of nazis about it in 1940 or so?

Actually, Vichy was very tolerant toward prostitution (as are most reactionary regimes; there's nothing better to preserve "moral order" than a good bunch of easily available sex commodities). The law outlawing brothels was passed in 1946, by the very first legislature for which women were allowed to vote.

[Beet]

And prostitutes don't have to be objects, you can try talk with them about "Being and Time" like with everyone's neighbour. You pay for the time of being with him/her (obviously this thing in a normal bourdel is kind of timed)....but believe me, you won't never bore a prostitute and she/he will never get bored. "That were the 25 minutes, I'm sorry lad, but it's time"

Well obviously if you pay only to talk, that's different, not under discussion.

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Well it's the difference between "Get me a coffee or you'll be fired" and "Give me a blowjob or you'll  be fired." We sense the second request is different, more severe.

[Beezer]

You get paid more for a bj though.

[opebo]

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Well it's the difference between "Get me a coffee or you'll be fired" and "Give me a blowjob or you'll  be fired." We sense the second request is different, more severe.

That's utter nonsense.  There is no one to 'fire' most prostitutes - they see clients.  A better analogy is 'give me a haircut or I won't pay you for the haircut'.

[Beet]

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Well it's the difference between "Get me a coffee or you'll be fired" and "Give me a blowjob or you'll  be fired." We sense the second request is different, more severe.

That's utter nonsense.  There is no one to 'fire' most prostitutes - they see clients.  A better analogy is 'give me a haircut or I won't pay you for the haircut'.

The effect is the same though - the person doesn't get paid. Most people who work for a living need to get paid to the extent that even if they really, really, really don't want to be working, they still have to force themselves into it. Hence even if the prostitute really, really, really doesn't want the sex, he/she may still 'have to do it.' Doesn't that trouble even you, opebo?

[Zanas]

I'm slowly verging on ignoring opebo now... And yet I am very open to all sorts of things.

[opebo]

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Well it's the difference between "Get me a coffee or you'll be fired" and "Give me a blowjob or you'll  be fired." We sense the second request is different, more severe.

That's utter nonsense.  There is no one to 'fire' most prostitutes - they see clients.  A better analogy is 'give me a haircut or I won't pay you for the haircut'.

The effect is the same though - the person doesn't get paid. Most people who work for a living need to get paid to the extent that even if they really, really, really don't want to be working, they still have to force themselves into it. Hence even if the prostitute really, really, really doesn't want the sex, he/she may still 'have to do it.' Doesn't that trouble even you, opebo?

No, Beet.  Why should it trouble me any more about that service than about haircuts or meals in restaurants?

[Antonio the Sixth]

As every thread in which Opebo shares his "thoughts" on sex...

What a sad little thread this turned out to be.

[Nichlemn]

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Well it's the difference between "Get me a coffee or you'll be fired" and "Give me a blowjob or you'll  be fired." We sense the second request is different, more severe.

That's utter nonsense.  There is no one to 'fire' most prostitutes - they see clients.  A better analogy is 'give me a haircut or I won't pay you for the haircut'.

The effect is the same though - the person doesn't get paid. Most people who work for a living need to get paid to the extent that even if they really, really, really don't want to be working, they still have to force themselves into it. Hence even if the prostitute really, really, really doesn't want the sex, he/she may still 'have to do it.' Doesn't that trouble even you, opebo?

It's troubling that people are in circumstances where they have to do things they find horrible in order to survive. But the underlying problem is their circumstances, not the horrible things they do. The horrible things they have to do is the lesser of the two evils for them - by making it harder for them to do those things, they suffer the greater evil of poverty. Of course, you're likely to say "But I also support actions to eliminate poverty" - great, but until you've succeeded, eliminating the options people use to alleviate poverty is going to keep them in poverty. If by good fortune we do end up in a scenario where no-one has any economic necessity, then we can deduce that whoever is still working in prostitution (and has not been physically coerced into it) must be doing it because they don't mind it for some extra disposable income.

[Beet]

To keep going with the analogies, this is kind of like the debate over sweatshops. Sure, the real 'problem' with sweatshops are the conditions of poverty, working under inhumane conditions may be slightly the lesser of two evils - and so you can support people who work in sweatshops for that reason. I don't shame or blame prostitutes for what they do. But when it comes to the sweatshop owner, what then? Is supporting sweatshops okay if it is marginally better than the alternative? What about the farmer who pays undocumented workers below market wages on the basis of their undocumented position? Circumstances are one thing, but they do not necessitate exploitation.

[Nichlemn]

To keep going with the analogies, this is kind of like the debate over sweatshops. Sure, the real 'problem' with sweatshops are the conditions of poverty, working under inhumane conditions may be slightly the lesser of two evils - and so you can support people who work in sweatshops for that reason. I don't shame or blame prostitutes for what they do. But when it comes to the sweatshop owner, what then? Is supporting sweatshops okay if it is marginally better than the alternative? What about the farmer who pays undocumented workers below market wages on the basis of their undocumented position? Circumstances are one thing, but they do not necessitate exploitation.

I see no reason to criticise someone who is offering a choice to someone, even if not a "great" choice, over the vast majority of the world who are not offering them any choices at all.

Though regardless, I don't think you can equate most (first world) prostitutes with sweatshops. I doubt there are very many who could simply not cope without the income from being a prostitute. And even if there are, given we're not going to get rid of it, legalising and regulating it will do a lot more to protect prostitutes than keeping it underground.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Banning prostitution won't do anything beyond on paper. It is much more likely that by forcing it underground, those in the trade are going to be at greater risk and danger.

[opebo]

It's troubling that people are in circumstances where they have to do things they find horrible in order to survive.

This is the very nature of our capitalist society nichelman.  Nearly everyone is in this situation, and in fact must be in this situation in order for the system of control to work.  To single out sex work as 'worse' is just simple prudery.

[Beet]

I see no reason to criticise someone who is offering a choice to someone, even if not a "great" choice, over the vast majority of the world who are not offering them any choices at all.

Because it's taking advantage of someone's degraded position for your own benefit?

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The number of women even in the first world who go into prostitution completely as an extra without really needing the income is quite small. I have no problem with legalizing it actually, as I said initially the policy issues are a lot different and more complicated.

[opebo]

The number of women even in the first world who go into prostitution completely as an extra without really needing the income is quite small.

Of course they go into it, as workers go into any job, because they need the income.  The difference is the income is many multiples, typically, of what any other job available to them would pay.

[Beezer]

I see no reason to criticise someone who is offering a choice to someone, even if not a "great" choice, over the vast majority of the world who are not offering them any choices at all.

Because it's taking advantage of someone's degraded position for your own benefit?

What kind of sneakers do you wear? Where do you buy your clothing? Most of that stuff is also made on the backs of people who can be hired for slave wages because they have no alternative options back home.

[opebo]

What kind of sneakers do you wear? Where do you buy your clothing? Most of that stuff is also made on the backs of people who can be hired for slave wages because they have no alternative options back home.

Wages for prostitutes are invariably very high compared to all other occupations available.

[Beet]

I've looked over this thread, and it looks like I'm debating five people at once. Is it really a surprise that a forum full of males doesn't see the difference between prostitution and buying a pair of shoes?

Here's my challenge to you folks: If it's just another physical act, and the sexual aspect is irrelevant, than why is rape a separate crime than physical assault? After all, the only difference is that one is sexual and one is not.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Here's my challenge to you folks: If it's just another physical act, and the sexual aspect is irrelevant, than why is rape a separate crime than physical assault? After all, the only difference is that one is sexual and one is not.

^^^^

Exactly. I should have thought about this parallel a while back.

[opebo]

Here's my challenge to you folks: If it's just another physical act, and the sexual aspect is irrelevant, than why is rape a separate crime than physical assault? After all, the only difference is that one is sexual and one is not.

^^^^

Exactly. I should have thought about this parallel a while back.

You fellows can't justify one cultural artifact just by noting other artifacts from the same culture are similar.