WI: Senator Kerry Killed

[Akno21]

The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.

You mean the Wellstone funeral was distasteful?

Nym, Carnahan had been an incumbent Governor, so the people had liked him and voted for him before. Kerry didn't mean as much to Wisconsoners or Iowans as Carnahan did to Missourans.

[Akno21]

The democrats would pull a Wellstone, they would totally hype it to the point where it's distastefull.

Pulling a Wellstone and hyping it the way MN Dems did didn't just make it distasteful. There are some things that are distasteful, people voice their opposition to it and move on. Wellstone hype was so distasteful that it actually caused Coleman to win.

You mean the Wellstone funeral was distasteful?

It became a political rally. Harkin got up to speak and started screaming all this partisan stuff. I have to say that Senator Harkin has been in the wrong place when it comes to screaming events (the Wellstone event and the infamous Dean scream).

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

[Akno21]

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral.  That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

[Akno21]

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral.  That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. 

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.

[Akno21]

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral.  That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

No, that doesn't excuse booing a member of the other party who came to honor his colleague.  The entire rally was just disgusting and extremely tasteless in every way.  The nation, and Minnesota in particular, saw the true face of the Democrats that day. Bitter, angry, and to partisan to even honor a good man without attacking another.

The same people who were vicously lying about him only a few days before? The Wellstone supporters didn't like that Bill Frist, chairman of the Republican senate election committee, had been unfairly, in their view, attacking him just days earlier. There's going to be animosity. Those were simply Wellstone's admirers, not the man himself. Of course they don't like the Republicans. Imagine what would have happened if Bill Clinton had gone to a funeral after Newt Gingrich (hypothetically) died in a plane crash around the '94 elections. He would have been shot.

IIRC, Hillary Clinton went to something honoring the 9/11 heroes, her constitutiants, and was vicously attacked by the right-wing media for showing up.

[Akno21]

How could it not end up being one? You had his mostly Democratic allies up to speak, they're going to say he was a fighter for the people, and they'll say we need to provide services, etc, liberal positions. His friends and family were mostly Democrats. His fans were. So the funeral will certainly have a pro-Wellstone values feel to it.

Akno, were Nancy Pelosi and Tom Daschle booed at Ronald Reagan's funeral.  That's right

The situation was COMPLETELY different. It was sad, but not tragic. Wellstone's death was an unimaginable tragedy. He had so much left to accomplish. Reagan had a lifetime of achievement, and his death was expected. Sad, yes, but not as emotional in the sense it was expected and we were prepared for it. A President's funeral is also more dignified, and not held in an arena cramped full of supporters.

That gives Tom Harkin the right to start jumping up and down, making it into a Senate candidate rally? I got to thank Harking for doing it though. Thanks in part to his actions, MN has one Republican Senator and another on the way. 

You know what it is, I don't think you and your fellow Republicans realized how much people can actually admire a politician. It was a very special case, I would estimate Wellstone, among his supporters, was one of the most beloved Senators in the nation. If Paul Sarbanes, John Kerry, a long list of other Senators died in the same fashion, the outpouring would have been smaller.

Harkin was speaking to a crowd of 16,000 PAUL WELLSTONE SUPPORTERS! What do you expect him to say, "Well, now that our candidate is down, go out and vote Coleman."? Also keep in mind that was not the funeral. If it were at the funeral that would be different. Were most of the speakers liberal? Of course they were? If Rick Santorum died in late October 2006, I'm pretty sure you'd have some Republican up there saying we've got to win this election for Rick Santorum.

The event was blown out of proportion by the right-wing media, many of which weren't even at the event and saw bits of it on television.

I'll sum up my response in one, quick line as I have done before: No matter how many Wellstone folks were there, that did not give him the right to start an all out attack on the Republicans when key Republicans were present.

You really are missing the point that this wasn't supposed to be a political rally. This wasn't supposed to be "Vote for so and so".

And I like how you use a comparison by throwing in Santorum. If he was to die and we were to have a memorial service with members of the opposition attending, I certainly wouldn't appreciate a Pro Santorum speaker shouting at the top of his lungs about the politics of the matter. Save that for your own rally.

It was a memorial rally for a liberal Democrat.

Also, which specific comments did you find unacceptable for the event?

[Akno21]

It was memorial. End of discussion. Not a political rally.

Harking got up there and was turning it political. He was turning it into "Let's show them! Those big bad Republicans won't win this! We'll show them!" and the fact that members of the Republican leadership took time out of their schedule to go to this memorial and were booed was disgraceful.

Do you have a copy of his speech?

The part that I thought went over the top was when Wellstone's friend, Rick Hahn, told Republicans to honor your friend and win the election for Paul Wellstone. That was a bit crazy.

How are you going to stop tens of thousands of people from chanting "Fritz, Fritz, Fritz!" when Walter Mondale steps out. As I said, the event was dominated by liberals, and the crowd was basically the liberal base of Minnesota. The liberal base of Minnesota is not going to heartily cheer Bill Frist.

Going back to the Santorum dying scenerio, I'm assuming you would stand up and cheer for Hillary Clinton and any other Democrat who appears at the Santorum memorial.

Overall, I think you simply fail to grasp the emotion that was in that building that night.

This was a public memorial, not a private funeral. The Democrats didn't encourage the crowd to boo the Republicans. It happened. The liberal base of Minnesota booed the republicans. The actual Democratic party candidates/elected officals did not. The Wellstone people did not expect that to happen, they had to revert from last week campaigning to planning a memorial, funeral, and everything else in the matter of days.

[Akno21]

It was memorial. End of discussion. Not a political rally.

Harking got up there and was turning it political. He was turning it into "Let's show them! Those big bad Republicans won't win this! We'll show them!" and the fact that members of the Republican leadership took time out of their schedule to go to this memorial and were booed was disgraceful.

Do you have a copy of his speech?

The part that I thought went over the top was when Wellstone's friend, Rick Hahn, told Republicans to honor your friend and win the election for Paul Wellstone. That was a bit crazy.

How are you going to stop tens of thousands of people from chanting "Fritz, Fritz, Fritz!" when Walter Mondale steps out. As I said, the event was dominated by liberals, and the crowd was basically the liberal base of Minnesota. The liberal base of Minnesota is not going to heartily cheer Bill Frist.

Going back to the Santorum dying scenerio, I'm assuming you would stand up and cheer for Hillary Clinton and any other Democrat who appears at the Santorum memorial.

Overall, I think you simply fail to grasp the emotion that was in that building that night.

This was a public memorial, not a private funeral. The Democrats didn't encourage the crowd to boo the Republicans. It happened. The liberal base of Minnesota booed the republicans. The actual Democratic party candidates/elected officals did not. The Wellstone people did not expect that to happen, they had to revert from last week campaigning to planning a memorial, funeral, and everything else in the matter of days.

I wouldn't cheer Hillary but I wouldn't act like inappropriate either.

What you're failing to grasp is the fact that it was a memorial and the behavior was out of line. It was so out of line that we now have a Senate seat because of it. Now tell me how liberal Minnesotans are.

When did I say Minnesotans were liberal? I said it was the liberal base at the memorial.

The whole crowd did not boo the republicans. Here is the video.

http://shows.implex.tv/Wellstone/#

Trent Lott appears at at 01:18:22. Right before that they show Clinton and Kennedy, and the crowd goes nuts with cheers. When Lott comes up, there are no cheers, but no boos like the cheers for Clinton and Kennedy before.

[Akno21]

When did I say Minnesotans were liberal? I said it was the liberal base at the memorial.

The whole crowd did not boo the republicans. Here is the video.

http://shows.implex.tv/Wellstone/#

Trent Lott appears at at 01:18:22. Right before that they show Clinton and Kennedy, and the crowd goes nuts with cheers. When Lott comes up, there are no cheers, but no boos like the cheers for Clinton and Kennedy before.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Did you hear any boos for Lott that were at all comparable to the loud cheering that took place for Clinton and Kennedy? Did you even listen to the recording on the video?

[Akno21]

Phil, I gave you the real event, on video, and you insist on believing Jesse Ventura when you can just watch the event yourself?

[Akno21]

Phil, I gave you the real event, on video, and you insist on believing Jesse Ventura when you can just watch the event yourself?

I watched it on TV, I watched Ventura, I watched others. Why are you denying the outcry about the event? You realize that that event was one of the main reasons why you lost the seat, right?

I'm not denying the outcry. I'm saying it was not a fair representation of the event. We also lost the seat because Walter Mondale at age 80 something is no Paul Wellstone.

Listen to the part where Lott was shown, do you hear 16,000 people booing?

[Akno21]

When did I say Minnesotans were liberal? I said it was the liberal base at the memorial.

The whole crowd did not boo the republicans. Here is the video.

http://shows.implex.tv/Wellstone/#

Trent Lott appears at at 01:18:22. Right before that they show Clinton and Kennedy, and the crowd goes nuts with cheers. When Lott comes up, there are no cheers, but no boos like the cheers for Clinton and Kennedy before.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Did you hear any boos for Lott that were at all comparable to the loud cheering that took place for Clinton and Kennedy? Did you even listen to the recording on the video?

Was that a recording of the whole event? No, I don't believe so. There were times when Lott was booed. This event didn't turn into a big deal for no reason, Akno.

It had over 4 hours on it.

Here's a more direct version.

http://shows.implex.tv/Wellstone/openchannel.cfm

[Akno21]

And there was no editing or anything like that? Sorry, Akno, but I'm very skeptical of this tape recording nothing and then all this public outcry. It doesn't make sense.

If you listen carefully you can hear some scattered boos. The vast majority of the crowd clearly did not like Trent Lott. If you're running a 30 second clip trying to prove it was a political rally, there certainly are enough bits and pieces to cut from, a few of Harkin's final comments, some of the stuff from Rick Hahn, etc. It was a perfect opportunity for the right wing to use to their advantage, and they did.

Do you have any other recordings of the event? The tape is almost 4 1/2 hours long, I'm not sure how long the thing was, but it couldn't have been much longer than that.

A related question. If the event was such a political rally, how come Fritz Mondale was barely mentioned? True, there was some, win this election for Paul Wellstone type of stuff, but nothing that really said go out and vote Mondale, which would have made it more political. IIRC, the only time Mondale was even mentioned was when his picture went up on the big screen and the crowd cheered.

[Akno21]

And there was no editing or anything like that? Sorry, Akno, but I'm very skeptical of this tape recording nothing and then all this public outcry. It doesn't make sense.

If you listen carefully you can hear some scattered boos. The vast majority of the crowd clearly did not like Trent Lott. If you're running a 30 second clip trying to prove it was a political rally, there certainly are enough bits and pieces to cut from, a few of Harkin's final comments, some of the stuff from Rick Hahn, etc. It was a perfect opportunity for the right wing to use to their advantage, and they did.

Do you have any other recordings of the event? The tape is almost 4 1/2 hours long, I'm not sure how long the thing was, but it couldn't have been much longer than that.

A related question. If the event was such a political rally, how come Fritz Mondale was barely mentioned? True, there was some, win this election for Paul Wellstone type of stuff, but nothing that really said go out and vote Mondale, which would have made it more political. IIRC, the only time Mondale was even mentioned was when his picture went up on the big screen and the crowd cheered.

It would have made it more political by mentioning Mondale's name but it was political enough with all that was going on. It was disgraceful. I'm not changing my opinion on that.

You say it was disgraceful because Jesse Ventura and others say it was disgraceful. Just watch the video, or obtain written parts of the speeches, find the disgraceful stuff. I wouldn't mind actually seeing what lines you consider disgraceful, but you seem unable to produce them.

[Akno21]

No, I said it was disgraceful because of the booing, because of the partisan scream fest at a memorial service. I said Minnesotans agreed with me and the Ventura comments (along with others) proved that.

What booing? Can you give me the time, on the only recording we have available at this point, where a Republican is booed? Which lines were partisan? If a senate colleague is making a positive speech about Wellstone, it is obviously going to include stuff about he worked for progressive principles. Duh.

To eliminate all political references, you might as well only let his neighbors speak about how he always took his trash out to the curb and made sure his dog never went off his property or some totally inconsequential stuff like that. The only stuff that could really be taken out is the let's win this election for Paul Wellstones stuff.

Finally, do you believe the Wellstone people intended for the event to be a political rally?

[Akno21]

No, I said it was disgraceful because of the booing, because of the partisan scream fest at a memorial service. I said Minnesotans agreed with me and the Ventura comments (along with others) proved that.

What booing? Can you give me the time, on the only recording we have available at this point, where a Republican is booed? Which lines were partisan? If a senate colleague is making a positive speech about Wellstone, it is obviously going to include stuff about he worked for progressive principles. Duh.

To eliminate all political references, you might as well only let his neighbors speak about how he always took his trash out to the curb and made sure his dog never went off his property or some totally inconsequential stuff like that. The only stuff that could really be taken out is the let's win this election for Paul Wellstones stuff.

Finally, do you believe the Wellstone people intended for the event to be a political rally?

When I say partisan, I mean it came across as bashing. Harkin, Wellstone's friend...they were turning it into something it shouldn't have been.

As for the Wellstone people, I don't know what they wanted. I'm just blaming the clowns that turned it into a disgraceful event. They turned it into a hostile event while members of the GOP were in attendance. Then again, I thank them for allowing us to pick up another seat. Like I said earlier, I'm sticking to my belief that some of the lines were uncalled for at times.

(My 7,000th post! )

It was not an anti-Republican speech by Harkin. It was pro-Wellstone, and therefore turned into pro-Democrat.

You have yet to find any specific lines that you consider to be uncalled for.

Congrats

[Akno21]

I will go through later and find the specific quotes. Now here's my question to you: You said you found the event disgraceful at times, correct? The people of MN found it disgraceful, too, isn't that right? What do you think their reasoning for it being disgraceful is and what is your reasoning?

I did not feel the "Let's go out and win this election for Paul Wellstone" type of moments were appropriate. They may have been playing to the crowd, but that doesn't excuse them.

They found it disgraceful because that was the story the media told. And the event was done in a way where you could play a 5 second clip of Harkin screaming, and you'd agree with the opinion it was disgraceful. Snap shots don't tell the whole story, but there were some snap shots that certainly didn't help the Democrats. They thought it was a political rally (it wasn't, but could VERY EASILY be portrayed as one) and obvously a memorial service should not be a political rally.

[Akno21]

I will go through later and find the specific quotes. Now here's my question to you: You said you found the event disgraceful at times, correct? The people of MN found it disgraceful, too, isn't that right? What do you think their reasoning for it being disgraceful is and what is your reasoning?

I did not feel the "Let's go out and win this election for Paul Wellstone" type of moments were appropriate. They may have been playing to the crowd, but that doesn't excuse them.

They found it disgraceful because that was the story the media told. And the event was done in a way where you could play a 5 second clip of Harkin screaming, and you'd agree with the opinion it was disgraceful. Snap shots don't tell the whole story, but there were some snap shots that certainly didn't help the Democrats. They thought it was a political rally (it wasn't, but could VERY EASILY be portrayed as one) and obvously a memorial service should not be a political rally.

Akno, it turned into a political rally.

For parts of it, yes it did. However, it was still a memorial for Paul Wellstone, not a rally for Walter Mondale.

[Akno21]

I will go through later and find the specific quotes.

Bump for Phil.

[Akno21]

I will go through later and find the specific quotes.

Bump for Phil.

Ignored by Phil. I figured the argument was over.

It was because I wanted to wait for you to "go through later and find the specific quotes".

[Akno21]

I will go through later and find the specific quotes.

Bump for Phil.

Ignored by Phil. I figured the argument was over.

It was because I wanted to wait for you to "go through later and find the specific quotes".

Well here's a quote from an article about something you denied. You said there were no boos, right?

Lott, the Republican leader of the U.S. Senate, and Ventura himself were booed when the dignitaries entered the arena before the event, which was packed with the Wellstone faithful. "It’s like booing someone at a funeral," Ventura said.

Link?

[Akno21]

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/4404751.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

All right, as they walked in before the event, Lott and Ventura were booed. That doesn't make it a political event. Ventura said in the same article that he was very impressed with the non partisaness up to Kahn's speech.

"I predicted, I said, be prepared, this will be political," Ventura said of his comments to his wife. "All the way through Sheila Wellstone, I turned to the first lady, and said, 'My God, I’m wrong.'" He was referring to speeches made on behalf of Sheila Wellstone and other victims.[i/]

So basically it was Kahn and Harkin who crossed the line. Two speakers. Keep in mind, this was an unscripted event. Political rallies are planned. This one was basically spontanious, during a few speeches.

Also, the fact that non-Democrats were booed doesn't mean that it was a political rally. As I said earlier, if it were a political rally, Mondale would have been featured.

[Akno21]

I understand it was unscripted, Akno. I understand it was just Kahn and Harkin but those two people can make a difference. It turned into a rally. Don't play around with this "political rallies are planned." nonsense. Was Whoppi Goldberg supposed to make sexual jokes about the Presidential at a Kerry political rally? Is that what you're saying? Was that "planned?"

Also, I believe Mondale's name was chanted a few times. Your argument is going nowhere, Akno.

Whoppi Goldberg is an actor/comedian, and it was expected that she would insult Bush using humor. Would the Kerry people have preferred she held back, of course. But they operated differently than the Bush campaign in regards to freedom at events. That's another debate.

The refrain of Kahn and Harkin's speeches were political, and combined with the crowd's reaction, were the makings of a political rally. I agree with you. However, seeing as those were only two speakers, it is unfair to categorize the whole event as a poltical rally, when the vast majority of speakers weren't political.

I did read somewhere that the crowd chanted "Fritz, Fritz, Fritz", when his picture was put on the screen. They did the same thing for both Clintons, Ted Kennedy, and other Democrats who came to the event. Mondale didn't get to speak (I may be wrong, but I think it was just Wellstone's friends/colleagues) and was given about five seconds of face time.

[Akno21]

Was the comment about President Bush scripted?

The event became a political rally, Akno. What it was intended to be and what it became are two different things.

You said there was no response for Mondale yet you admit his name was chanted. You're not making sense.

I said Mondale was not featured. He was not given a speaking slot. I don't count his face going up on the screen during the time when they were showcasing all the famous politicans there as featuring him. The name was chanted when his face was put up there.

I don't know if the Kerry people read through Goldberg's material before she went out. I know the Wellstone people didn't know what Kahn, Harkin, or anyone else was going to say.

[Akno21]

Was the comment about President Bush scripted?

The event became a political rally, Akno. What it was intended to be and what it became are two different things.

You said there was no response for Mondale yet you admit his name was chanted. You're not making sense.

I said Mondale was not featured. He was not given a speaking slot. I don't count his face going up on the screen during the time when they were showcasing all the famous politicans there as featuring him. The name was chanted when his face was put up there.

I don't know if the Kerry people read through Goldberg's material before she went out. I know the Wellstone people didn't know what Kahn, Harkin, or anyone else was going to say.

Chanting of the name would be political.

If all events that become political are scripted, then Goldberg's comments must have been scripted. That's what you're saying.

They don't have to be scripted, but in many cases they are.