Idiot Republican wants to raise Minnesota drinking age

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5287990.html

man, I'm so happy I turned 21 before this came up, although I doubt it'll pass. the first thing I did when the clock hit midnight was buy alcohol.

[angus]

Idiot democrats did it in my generation.  Luckily for me the 19 and 20 year olds were grandfathered in went it went up to 21.

I still think we have the drinking age and the driving/voting ages totally backwards.  Drunk kids would cause fewer problems if you didn't put keys and voting registration cards in their hands.

[Erc]

Lower it to 19 and you fix a lot of problems.

[angus]

why not 18?  or 16?  I really don't think the studies are conclusive, and the 19 number is just as arbitrary.  I'd be into lowering it all the way down as low as anyone wants to lower it.  The problem with "drinking and driving" is not the "drinking" part, it's the "driving" part.  Make that age about 25.  You already have to be 25 to rent a car at most national companies, and to run for congress.  Clearly we recognize that there's a mean measure of maturity, and that this mean is somewhere around 25.  (I'm not sure what the standard deviation is, but it shouldn't matter because we have to only have one rule.)  Drunk drivers and careless drivers kill people, no doubt about it.  So you fix the problem not by taking away the booze, but by taking away the carkeys.

[KEmperor]

why not 18?  or 16?  I really don't think the studies are conclusive, and the 19 number is just as arbitrary.  I'd be into lowering it all the way down as low as anyone wants to lower it.  The problem with "drinking and driving" is not the "drinking" part, it's the "driving" part.  Make that age about 25.  You already have to be 25 to rent a car at most national companies, and to run for congress.  Clearly we recognize that there's a mean measure of maturity, and that this mean is somewhere around 25.  (I'm not sure what the standard deviation is, but it shouldn't matter because we have to only have one rule.)  Drunk drivers and careless drivers kill people, no doubt about it.  So you fix the problem not by taking away the booze, but by taking away the carkeys.

I disagree.  I think the the main reason teenagers tend to get into accidents is inexperience.  Raising the driving age just means you'll have a lot more inexperienced 25 year olds driving around instead of instead of inexpreienced 18 year olds.  They have to learn sometime.  (Not to mention, how are you going to get a job if you can't drive to work?)

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I'd prefer it if we went back to the old beer and wine at 18 and liquor at 21 drinking age combo that was common in many jurisdictions before it was raised to a uniform 21.  Granted, you can get seriously drunk from just beer and wine, but it takes a lot more effort to get to the point of alcohol poisoning with them than it does with liquor.

[opebo]

It is very offensive to have a drinking age at all - Land of the Free my ass.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

By 8 hours? Who cares?

[angus]

Raising the driving age just means you'll have a lot more inexperienced 25 year olds driving around instead of instead of inexpreienced 18 year olds.

well, I'm open to alternative analyses, and yours is thoughtful.  However, I remember my own 16-25 years.  I can't count the number of times I went out, pissed drunk, could even see straight, to drive home.  Now, you have to admit, an adult is less likely to attempt to drive home drunk than a 16-year-old.  I know that's the case for me.  Yeah, some of the problem is inexperience, but some of it must also be general lack of social maturity.  (actually, given the relative frequency with which I'd drive either drunk on alcohol, or high on any number of chemicals, and given the number of times I've been pulled over by the cops while flying high or drunk, I'm lucky to be alive and lucky to have only once been charged with DWI.)

Also, yes, if we're not going to commit ourselves to the massive costs of public transit infrastructure, then we need some consideration for private transit.  Given that you're a truer rightist than I, I'll assume you're not open to the idea of increased public transit in areas wherein the economic feasibility is questionable.  Given that situation, sure, we need to allow children to drive. 

But you have to admit that raising the drinking age is not a viable solution to the drunk driving problem.  Raising the driving age would at least ameliorate (but, you're right, probably not alleviate) that problem.

[KEmperor]

Raising the driving age just means you'll have a lot more inexperienced 25 year olds driving around instead of instead of inexpreienced 18 year olds.

well, I'm open to alternative analyses, and yours is thoughtful.  However, I remember my own 16-25 years.  I can't count the number of times I went out, pissed drunk, could even see straight, to drive home.  Now, you have to admit, an adult is less likely to attempt to drive home drunk than a 16-year-old.  I know that's the case for me.  Yeah, some of the problem is inexperience, but some of it must also be general lack of social maturity.  (actually, given the relative frequency with which I'd drive either drunk on alcohol, or high on any number of chemicals, and given the number of times I've been pulled over by the cops while flying high or drunk, I'm lucky to be alive and lucky to have only once been charged with DWI.)

Also, yes, if we're not going to commit ourselves to the massive costs of public transit infrastructure, then we need some consideration for private transit.  Given that you're a truer rightist than I, I'll assume you're not open to the idea of increased public transit in areas wherein the economic feasibility is questionable.  Given that situation, sure, we need to allow children to drive. 

But you have to admit that raising the drinking age is not a viable solution to the drunk driving problem.  Raising the driving age would at least ameliorate (but, you're right, probably not alleviate) that problem.

Yes, I agree that raising the drinking age is not a viable solution to the drunk driving problem.  And yes, increased public transit is not preferable in my opinion.  I just don't see raising the driving age as a feasable solution.  Anyone who is out of high school needs to be able to drive, unless they live in a city where a subway system provides good coverage.  Anyone who is out of college needs to be able to drive even more.

As to the drinking age, I favor a return to the 18 rule.  Graduated citizenship is crazy, you are either an adult or you are not.

[Keystone Phil]

the first thing I did when the clock hit midnight was buy alcohol.

Unless you were born at midnight, you were still 20 years old.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I assume this bill doesn't apply to people with a birthday of February 29th.

[dazzleman]

I am for an 18-year-old drinking age, because all other rights (and potentional obligations) of citizenship begin at 18.

But it  doesn't make much practical difference.  Kids will drink when they want, regardless of the drinking age.  The high school kid up the street from me had a HUGE party last Friday night when he was left alone for the weekend.  There were beer cans and liquor bottles all over the place.

The people on my block are pretty cool, so nobody called the cops.  Plus, everybody likes his mom, and nobody wants to make trouble for her.  But these kids were all underage, and had no trouble getting their hands on voluminious quantities of beer.

Even if the cops had been called, nothing would have happened to them.  They would have run away and gone home.  Nobody cares that much.

[PBrunsel]

Of course Prohibition was a noble expierement. Perhaps we could just reeinstate that and end all drinking ages.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Raise it to 50.. don't know why 50 it just pop in my head....

[dazzleman]

Raising the driving age just means you'll have a lot more inexperienced 25 year olds driving around instead of instead of inexpreienced 18 year olds.

well, I'm open to alternative analyses, and yours is thoughtful.  However, I remember my own 16-25 years.  I can't count the number of times I went out, pissed drunk, could even see straight, to drive home.  Now, you have to admit, an adult is less likely to attempt to drive home drunk than a 16-year-old.  I know that's the case for me.  Yeah, some of the problem is inexperience, but some of it must also be general lack of social maturity.  (actually, given the relative frequency with which I'd drive either drunk on alcohol, or high on any number of chemicals, and given the number of times I've been pulled over by the cops while flying high or drunk, I'm lucky to be alive and lucky to have only once been charged with DWI.)

Also, yes, if we're not going to commit ourselves to the massive costs of public transit infrastructure, then we need some consideration for private transit.  Given that you're a truer rightist than I, I'll assume you're not open to the idea of increased public transit in areas wherein the economic feasibility is questionable.  Given that situation, sure, we need to allow children to drive. 

But you have to admit that raising the drinking age is not a viable solution to the drunk driving problem.  Raising the driving age would at least ameliorate (but, you're right, probably not alleviate) that problem.

Great points, angus.  I think inexperience is an issue, but so is maturity and the level of judgment exhibited at certain ages.  The person who first learns to drive at 20 or 21 will not necessarily drive the same way he/she would have at 16, nor will that person necessarily exhibit the same poor judgment about drinking and driving.  So I think that you're right on the money in saying that problems with younger drivers such as recklessness and drunk driving are a combination of immaturity and inexperience.

But to play devil's advocate on the driving age, I have another theory.  My mom made all of us learn to drive at 16 (not that it took too much prodding) because she said you have to learn to drive while you're still relatively fearless.  She said she never knew anybody who learned to drive after reaching full maturity who was a good driver.  As I think about it, she was probably right.  Those who learn to drive later in life are often very skittish and overly cautious, and never develop the skills that those who learn younger develop.

There's no easy answer.  It's like letting your kid cross the street on his own for the first time.  You may be scared to death, but you do it anyway because you know you have to at some point.  We can't keep delaying adulthood; that's not the answer.  And most kids are VERY crafty about getting around the rules that adults set for them in any case.

I tend not to favor "solutions" that effectively mete out collective punishment based upon group behavior.  I think instead that there should be strict BEHAVIORAL guidelines when it comes to drinking and driving, and that breaking them should bring severe punishment.  That way we focus on the problem people, deter others who may be otherwise tempted, and hopefully control the problem that way rather than just issuing a blanket "punishment" to every young person.  And as I've said before, it's hard to argue that it makes sense that a person can be old enough to marry, and old enough to give his life for his country, but not old enough to have a drink legally.

angus, I also applaud your honesty and your refusal to submit to politically correct posturing.  I too have driven drunk, but I don't think to anywhere near the extent that you did.  I ALMOST got busted for it once, but got very lucky, so my worst legal run-in remains speeding (and I'd like to keep it that way).

[minionofmidas]

Raise it to 50.. don't know why 50 it just pop in my head....

Driving age? Yeah, good idea.

[minionofmidas]

Getting the beer and liqour drinking ages separated again is definitely a good idea. Also, raising the driving age to 18 (25 is...weird...though.)
In Germany, it's 16 for beer and wine*, 18 for liquor, 18 for driving.

*purchase. In keeping with the logic of German drug laws, consumption is technically not illegal.

[Redefeatbush04]

Raise it to 50.. don't know why 50 it just pop in my head....

haha the number 27.2 just popped into mine. (i am sadly being serious). If I typed everything I thought everyone would be hiding in fear

[KEmperor]

Raise it to 50.. don't know why 50 it just pop in my head....

haha the number 27.2 just popped into mine. (i am sadly being serious). If I typed everything I thought everyone would be hiding in fear

Naw, you'd probably just end up looking like Josh.