How and why have you evolved politically?

[RogueBeaver]

My positions on language issues changed considerably about 6 years ago. No ideological change.

[Hatman 🍁]

My parents were Democrat, and somewhat frothy about it--I thought Reagan was a dirty word till I was at least 20 years old.  In fact, most of my extended family are rabid anti-GOP democrats, so I was brainwashed from the start.  Probably not unlike most folks, really.  As a university student and as a grad student I was a fairly committed leftist.  I was even a card-carrying, dues-paying member of the Revolutionary Workers Party for one year.  I often voted for leftist candidates, although in the 90s I supported Clinton both times.  Eventually I got a real job.  First real job I had I was living in California, single, and making good money.  As you might imagine, my net pay was less than two-thirds of my gross.  That first paycheck pretty much did it for me.  After receiving it, I promptly registered as a Republican.  Gave money to the Bush/Cheney campaign even.  I stayed a Republican for a few years but eventually I became as put off with them as I had been with the Democrats.  Also, I eventually got married and had a child and started to think about things like the quality of public schools.  About five years ago I became unaffiliated.  

Overall, I've probably always been centrist/unaffiliated.  Sort of Clintonian without the baggage.  It just took me a while to get through the dampened oscillatory political demagoguery that was the likely result of the initial familial brainwashing.

Sounds like you weren't the brightest bulb before getting that paycheque (aside from being a leftist). It's quite common for people to be left wing when they're younger and then run from their positions the first time they get taxed.  But, why is this so common? An intelligent leftist would understand the tax system, and would already be comfortable with the thought of being taxed, wouldn't they? I know such is the case for me. So what makes people like you switch so quickly? I doubt it can be just the paycheque alone.

[angus]

Then I suppose I'm a fucking moron.  Thank you for pointing that out.  My life is now complete, having posted here for so many years and finally having met someone with your profound wisdom to shed some light my sorry state of existence.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Was that the Revolutionary Workers Party or the Workers Revolutionary Party?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Or perhaps the Party of Revolutionary Workers.

[angus]

MRWP.  They used to meet at the People's Republik of Cambridge.  It's a bar, in the other Cambridge, as you might have ascertained by now.  Anyway, yeah, I gave them ten dollars for a one-year card at one point.  Got a quarterly newsletter.  Cheesy, it was.  I'm not sure whether the organization still exists.  Nor, for that matter, whether that bar still exists.  WalterMitty lives in that area.  Maybe he knows.  Anyway, you have been posting here longer than I.  We may have discussed, in the more than a decade that I've been posting, the candidates that have run for office to the left of the Democrats.  

None of that really matters at this point, as I'm really not left of the Democrats nor right of the Rebublicans.  Nor are, I suspect, most of the posters here, as most of them are still of an age during which their parents' judgments will inform them more than anything else.  

I was discussing this at some point with a recent Ethiopian immigrant in San Francisco, not long before I joined this forum...  Must have been about 12 years ago.  She was saying that it takes till you're about 35 to really form a political opinion.  It was the sort of statement that really struck me as true.  Well, lots of statements really strike me as true, but it was one of those things that I thought that I was the only one on the face of the earth who really understood.  She was, of course, correct.  

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

[Horus]

I was once a social liberal, supporting things like AA and banning all guns, now I'm a social libertarian. I was also once a fiscal true leftist and now I'm a fiscal moderate. Why did I change? Maturity.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Neocon SoCon>Libertarian with Hawkish Foreign Policy>Libertarian>Randroid>Moderate Libertarian with slight Randist influence.

But Ayn Rand hated libertarians.

Ayn Rand hated everybody.

[The world will shine with light in our nightmare]

Neocon SoCon>Libertarian with Hawkish Foreign Policy>Libertarian>Randroid>Moderate Libertarian with slight Randist influence.

But Ayn Rand hated libertarians.

Ayn Rand hated everybody.

Do you still think Objectivism is compatible with Christian values, Sanchez?

[traininthedistance]

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Neocon SoCon>Libertarian with Hawkish Foreign Policy>Libertarian>Randroid>Moderate Libertarian with slight Randist influence.

But Ayn Rand hated libertarians.

Ayn Rand hated everybody.

Do you still think Objectivism is compatible with Christian values, Sanchez?

I never said Objectivism is completely compatible; I said limited aspects of it can be within a Christian context. For example, Ayn Rand believed people should pursue their highest value. As a Christian, the Lord is my highest value, and I seek to honor him by being charitable to others as he commanded, even though I don’t always want to part with my possessions. I don’t think Jesus would accept forced charity by his Church (though I can’t and won’t speak for him)-that would take away from the very meaning of the concept.

Of course, Ayn Rand was a militant atheist who rejected religion and declared it irrational. Yet her own Atheism-which she quite literally decided upon within a quarter of a second while in class one day-was irrational in the same manner that she thought Christians were “irrational.”

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Yeah, I thought that was a Winston Churchill quote. I'm a dumb though, so he might have been repeating it from an earlier author when he famously said it.

[angus]

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Technically, the Jewish version, of course, is "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no money."  As to its accuracy, I suppose that If you're pretty sure about something, then it must be so. 

[MaxQue]

On economics, I have pretty much never moved, but on social issues, I moved from hardcore catholic conservatism (I supported outlawing extra-marital sex), despite being from a "liberal" family, to a very "liberal" position.

The shift happened for various reasons, the main one being be realizing the failings of organised religion and authority in general.

[bedstuy]

How:  From generic left-liberalism towards the middle/no ideology, towards pragmatism, free-markets and neo-conservatism (think Irving Kristol, not Bush administration cretins).

Why:  To me, it's mostly education, experience and life events.  My foreign policy views are probably strongly shaped by Iraq and 9/11.  My economic views are shaped by volunteer work with poor people in Brooklyn and a few jobs at banking institutions.  My gun control views are shaped by almost being shot a couple of times.  And, I think coming into my own in between the Bush reelection when I was in high school and Obama election in college was really important as well.   

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Technically, the Jewish version, of course, is "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no money."  As to its accuracy, I suppose that If you're pretty sure about something, then it must be so. 

I had always heard that attributed to David Lloyd George.

[angus]

How:  From generic left-liberalism towards the middle/no ideology, towards pragmatism, free-markets and neo-conservatism (think Irving Kristol, not Bush administration cretins).

Why:  To me, it's mostly education, experience and life events.  My foreign policy views are probably strongly shaped by Iraq and 9/11.  My economic views are shaped by volunteer work with poor people in Brooklyn and a few jobs at banking institutions.  My gun control views are shaped by almost being shot a couple of times.  And, I think coming into my own in between the Bush reelection when I was in high school and Obama election in college was really important as well.    

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Technically, the Jewish version, of course, is "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no money."  As to its accuracy, I suppose that If you're pretty sure about something, then it must be so.  

I had always heard that attributed to David Lloyd George.

Well, David Lloyd George may or may not be accurate either.  I may not be the "brightest bulb" but I do know when folks are reading far too much into my posts.  For the record:  1.  I am not claiming that David Lloyd George is a Jew.  2.  I am not claiming that Winston Churchhill is a Jew.  3.  I am not making any claims to the accuracy of a thing that Jews in America commonly say.  4.  I have no idea who first said anything and I'm not sure I've ever made any claim on who first said anything.

I was merely answering the question which, as the original poster predicted, "could be interesting."  Indeed.

[traininthedistance]

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Technically, the Jewish version, of course, is "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no money."  As to its accuracy, I suppose that If you're pretty sure about something, then it must be so. 

Well, I've heard that chestnut dozens upon dozens of times, and never before has it specifically been related as a Jewish saying, or having anything like a "Jewish version".  As for its accuracy, the actual political scientists are pretty unanimous in saying that peoples' political views tend to solidify in early adulthood and by and large don't really change when they get older.  

To be fair, it's one of those chestnuts whose provenance and accuracy are entirely beside the point, though the murkiness of both kind of makes me question the wisdom of anyone who passes it on.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

Jews in America always say that "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no head."  They're all morons too, I suppose.  That's okay.  Evolution still happens, whether or not one chooses to accept its results.

Pretty sure that commonplace is neither Jewish, nor accurate.

Technically, the Jewish version, of course, is "He who, when young, is not a liberal has no heart; he who, when old, is not a conservative, has no money."  As to its accuracy, I suppose that If you're pretty sure about something, then it must be so. 

Well, I've heard that chestnut dozens upon dozens of times, and never before has it specifically been related as a Jewish saying, or having anything like a "Jewish version".  As for its accuracy, the actual political scientists are pretty unanimous in saying that peoples' political views tend to solidify in early adulthood and by and large don't really change when they get older.  

To be fair, it's one of those chestnuts whose provenance and accuracy are entirely beside the point, though the murkiness of both kind of makes me question the wisdom of anyone who passes it on.

I don't remember where I saw it (maybe reddit?), but someone said it was "liberal vs. conservative" in the 1800s European monarchy sense, and "liberal" should be "republican"(as in supporting a republican form of government over the monarchy).


But idk man.

[angus]

Chestnuts?


5.  I, for one, did not come in here to discuss any deciduous trees or shrubs.


yeah, it's interesting.  Gotta give the OP that.

[bgwah]

I've moved around a little bit back and forth on economic issues, but for the most part I have always been a social liberal and an economic moderate.

[Hatman 🍁]

Then I suppose I'm a fucking moron.  Thank you for pointing that out.  My life is now complete, having posted here for so many years and finally having met someone with your profound wisdom to shed some light my sorry state of existence.

I was criticizing your mindset when you got your first paycheque. (Not criticizing your current mental capacity; we all know you're a brilliant wordsmith, so there's no need to patronize me). The point of my post was that I want to know what really changed your views back then, because you had to have known the tax man was going to come down and take your money. Surely in associating with socialists this was not brought up?

I see it so often that people are liberal in there youth, but become conservative as they grow older. It's exemplified in that famous quote you mentioned. (a quote that truly irks me, in case that wasn't obvious).  I think the change for most people does come from seeing the tax man take their earned cash, but it seems bizarre to me that they wouldn't have thought about that before. After all, thinking about tax theory is at least part of an active political liberal.

I may not be 35 yet, but I do face many of the same challenges a lot of people go through when they make their political shifts. I have a decent job, and a family to raise. And yet, I have not made this political shift. If anything, many of my experiences have shifted me more to the left. Perhaps I am still to young, and still have a "heart". But as a parent, I'm rather grateful for that trait.

[Dave from Michigan]

Then I suppose I'm a fucking moron.  Thank you for pointing that out.  My life is now complete, having posted here for so many years and finally having met someone with your profound wisdom to shed some light my sorry state of existence.

I was criticizing your mindset when you got your first paycheque. (Not criticizing your current mental capacity; we all know you're a brilliant wordsmith, so there's no need to patronize me). The point of my post was that I want to know what really changed your views back then, because you had to have known the tax man was going to come down and take your money. Surely in associating with socialists this was not brought up?

I see it so often that people are liberal in there youth, but become conservative as they grow older. It's exemplified in that famous quote you mentioned. (a quote that truly irks me, in case that wasn't obvious).  I think the change for most people does come from seeing the tax man take their earned cash, but it seems bizarre to me that they wouldn't have thought about that before. After all, thinking about tax theory is at least part of an active political liberal.

I may not be 35 yet, but I do face many of the same challenges a lot of people go through when they make their political shifts. I have a decent job, and a family to raise. And yet, I have not made this political shift. If anything, many of my experiences have shifted me more to the left. Perhaps I am still to young, and still have a "heart". But as a parent, I'm rather grateful for that trait.

Good post.  I hate that quote on getting conservative as you age. I have moved to the left as I got older. Some of it may be the Republican party is crazy. But I turn 30 in 2 months and I'm the most liberal I have ever been although I'm not really that liberal. I'm not a huge fan of paying taxes and I don't like it when the money is actually misspent or wasted but that money goes to help a lot of people who are less fortunate than me. The real world has made me liberal I have seen way too many people work too hard and then hit a hard time and need help, or people just barely making it who need some food stamp help.

[traininthedistance]

I don't remember where I saw it (maybe reddit?), but someone said it was "liberal vs. conservative" in the 1800s European monarchy sense, and "liberal" should be "republican"(as in supporting a republican form of government over the monarchy).


But idk man.

I don't know about this particular historical explanation, but it does remind me of one way in which that quote can seem to make sense: if society as a whole is getting more "liberal" on various issues, but you stay the same as you get older, that's going to be interpreted as a relative shift to the right, and not unjustly so.  Magically turning right-wing when you get a job and kids is an overstated and overrated phenomenon... but "back my day we had to walk uphill both ways in the snow and get off my lawn" is definitely a mindset that (justly or unjustly) is widespread, so I'll give y'all that.

[afleitch]

I was first interested in politics as a concept (as much as my wee brain could handle) when John Smith still led the Labour party. Of course, I ended up a Blairite because that was ‘the future’ and I’ve never fully been satisfied with present conditions at any time in my life. Became disillusioned by the time I joined this site and eventually drifted into Toryism in 2004 and joined the party. Remained a member until last year when a majority of voting Tory MP’s opposed equal marriage. I now have no desire to identify with anything because politics in your own backyard is always a bit sh-t, though I’m still probably going to vote SNP in Scotland and Tory at Westminster. I’m more to the left in Scottish politics than I am in UK politics (I suppose that’s partly due to taxation etc not being devolved)

With regards to America, I tend to be happy with whatever iteration the Democrats are in.

I’ve also drifted from privately school excreted Catholic (which abruptly ended when I was 15) to chipper ‘Scott’ like liberal Christian to atheist, upon taking a more open mind with a bit of ‘nature idolisation’ thrown in.

[Hatman 🍁]

Then I suppose I'm a fucking moron.  Thank you for pointing that out.  My life is now complete, having posted here for so many years and finally having met someone with your profound wisdom to shed some light my sorry state of existence.

I was criticizing your mindset when you got your first paycheque. (Not criticizing your current mental capacity; we all know you're a brilliant wordsmith, so there's no need to patronize me). The point of my post was that I want to know what really changed your views back then, because you had to have known the tax man was going to come down and take your money. Surely in associating with socialists this was not brought up?

I see it so often that people are liberal in there youth, but become conservative as they grow older. It's exemplified in that famous quote you mentioned. (a quote that truly irks me, in case that wasn't obvious).  I think the change for most people does come from seeing the tax man take their earned cash, but it seems bizarre to me that they wouldn't have thought about that before. After all, thinking about tax theory is at least part of an active political liberal.

I may not be 35 yet, but I do face many of the same challenges a lot of people go through when they make their political shifts. I have a decent job, and a family to raise. And yet, I have not made this political shift. If anything, many of my experiences have shifted me more to the left. Perhaps I am still to young, and still have a "heart". But as a parent, I'm rather grateful for that trait.

Good post.  I hate that quote on getting conservative as you age. I have moved to the left as I got older. Some of it may be the Republican party is crazy. But I turn 30 in 2 months and I'm the most liberal I have ever been although I'm not really that liberal. I'm not a huge fan of paying taxes and I don't like it when the money is actually misspent or wasted but that money goes to help a lot of people who are less fortunate than me. The real world has made me liberal I have seen way too many people work too hard and then hit a hard time and need help, or people just barely making it who need some food stamp help.

I think life experiences play a huge part in carving one's political positions around that "crucial age" of 35 (if that totally arbitrary number is some how as magical as Angus claims). If you get a good job, and have everything going for you (as is angus' case) you will get more conservative, because you will think that you have this perfect life because you have worked hard for it. While that may be the case for some, it usually isn't. But most people that have been rewarded in life feel entitled to low taxes, because they have earned their perfect lives.

However, people who have struggled to get by, despite having worked really hard will be spiteful, and rest those who have it all, and those people are more likely to become more left wing around this pivotal age.  I was already left wing to begin with, but my struggles have firmed up my beliefs.

There was a case study where the test subjects were made to play monopoly, and one player was given an unfair advantage. That player was told he had an unfair advantage, but still played the game as if he earned this advantage, boasting about he great a monopoly player he was, etc. I think this is often mirrored too much in real life.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I had always heard that attributed to David Lloyd George.

The same David Lloyd George who at an advanced age (and to his eternal credit) was one of only a handful (literally) of Liberal MPs to not support the National Government?