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Author Topic: Summary of political beliefs  (Read 402454 times)
Mechaman
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« Reply #275 on: July 14, 2009, 02:51:31 pm »

You made the claim that the 1861 C.S.A. secession from the U.S. was treason. If this is the case, explain how the 1776 U.S. secession from Britain wasn't.

The 1776 secession was treason. I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Well in Einzige's defense, he never defined whether said "treason" was justified or not justified. People always assume that "treason" has a negative connotation. Not many people consider that in some cases, "treason" is the moral choice.
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Chuck Hagel 08
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« Reply #276 on: July 14, 2009, 05:42:32 pm »

You made the claim that the 1861 C.S.A. secession from the U.S. was treason. If this is the case, explain how the 1776 U.S. secession from Britain wasn't.

The 1776 secession was treason. I don't think anyone ever claimed otherwise.

Well in Einzige's defense, he never defined whether said "treason" was justified or not justified. People always assume that "treason" has a negative connotation. Not many people consider that in some cases, "treason" is the moral choice.

If you look later in that thread, he refused to read Lysander Spooner's essay No Treason on the grounds that it was treasonous.

Also, I find it funny that Einzige invariably abandons the thread once I provide evidence that his claim is bull.
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Lahbas
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« Reply #277 on: July 22, 2009, 12:16:11 am »

Social Issues

Abortion: Personally, I would support a constitutional amendment banning Abortion all, together. Pragmatically, let the states decide on the issue, same as they can on Gay Marriage.
Separation of church and state: In my opinion, it does not exist. Most laws are based off those that exist with the religious codes. I do not agree in a strict separation as they have today, but I do not believe in a national religion, or infringement upon any religion.
Affirmative action: No way to make it work. No matter how you try, you will always be discriminating against SOMEONE. In theory, I like it. In practice, not so much.
Gun control: The Second Amendment guarantees us that right, so I do not believe is heavy controls. However, registration, and also controls on individuals who have used such weapons for illegal purposes I would be okay with.
Death penalty: Leave it to the states.
Flag burning: Even though I oppose this, I respect symbolic speech in this case.
Euthanasia: Only in extreme cases, not on-demand.
Prostitution: Should be banned completely, but enforcement would be too lacking.
Immigration: Revamp the immigration programs so they are more up to date. At the same time, complete and effective border fence along Mexico, while also maintaining troops there.
Gay Rights: I would support Civil Unions, but thru my religion, I find the term of marriage, which I consider to be a sacrament within my church, not applicable in this case. I know they are relatively the same thing.
Drugs and Alcohol:All illegal drugs should remain illegal. Leave alcohol legislation to the states. Government taxes on cigarettes and cigars should be increased, so as to make it too expensive for 10 and 12 year olds to get from peddlers.
Censorship:As the law currently states.
Gambling:In my view the perfect creation by the Devil himself. States should have the right to legalize it, but I personally oppose.
Language:English is the American language. Immigrants may keep their own, but they cannot expect us to learn theirs. Either they learn English, or they can leave.
Embryonic Stem Cell Research:Adult Stem Cells only. Religious reasons, and that those tests have been the ones that have got any results.

Economic Issues

Taxes: Cut taxes across the board.
Trade: I would support some tariffs, but I am usually agreeable to free trade.
Spending: Depends where the money is going. However, the lower numbers tend to be the best.
Welfare: Welfare should either be completely dismantled, or at least revamped in such a way as to force people off it. Such ways could include proof of trying to find a job, or that they are on their way of being able to stand on their own feet.
Education: The government should be supporting all the shcools, whether they are private or not. The competition would generate better students in the long run, as they would all battle for government funding.
Regulations: Significantly reduce.
Space Program: Strongly Support. We should have set foot on the Martian surface 30 years ago! Manifest Destiny!
Energy Policy: Nuclear Energy should be set as a priority. In the meantime, research ways to development clean, yet cheap energy.

Foreign Policy

Military Involvement: We must have a strong military to defend ourselves and fight the war on terrorism, and we should never put military action off the table.
United Nations: I hate the organization, but withdrawing would only put us in a weaker postion. It at least allows us the ability to counter Russian and Chinese influence, who already counter our own.
Israel: Support it in it's cause for maintaining existence.
Foreign aid: Give only to nations that truly need it, not as a way to improve relations or as a diplomatic bargaining tool.
Iraq: Disagree with the initial invasion, but we cannot leave now until Iraq is completely stable. Blame Rumsfeld and Cheney for the mess, not Bush.
Iran: Have the UN operate their nuclear reactors, and make sure that they are not able to produce weapons grade material. However, I must assume that they aim at creating a nuclear weapon, due to the suspicion that Israel itself has one.
North Korea: If they move another inch, hit them hard.
Russia: Give monetary support to opposition groups to allow them to bribe their way through the barriers created by the government. From there, force democratization.
China: See Russia entry.
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FloridaRepublican
justrhyno
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« Reply #278 on: July 22, 2009, 12:38:12 am »

Social ideology:  Conservative

Abortion:  Illegal except in the case of rape or incest

Affirmative action:  Get rid of it.  Having an equal number of black and white people doesn't get jobs done.

Death penalty:  Strongly support

Gun control:  Pro-second amendment

Flag burning:  It's more of a personal and ethical thing.  Personally, I think if you're willing to light a match and set the American flag, you have got serious problems.  Personally, if you're willing to do that, you should obviously go to another country because you don't like it here.  It's just a common sense factor.

Gay marriage:  Should be abolished.  Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.

Immigration:  I don't care if someone wants to move here from Asia or wherever.

Illegal Immigration:  Absolutely oppose.  The word "Illegal" is there for a reason.  And I oppose amnesty for illegals already here.

Drugs:  Should stay illegal.  They are illegal for a reason, you know.

Taxes:  Flat tax.  Only fair.

Welfare:  Get rid of it.  Its people are only bringing the entire country down with them.  Or at least modify it to where only people who are truly trying to look for jobs can use it.  It's become ridiculous nowadays.
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Хahar 🤔
Xahar
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« Reply #279 on: July 22, 2009, 12:48:20 am »

They are illegal for a reason, you know.

Why, pray tell?
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Edgar Suit Larry
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« Reply #280 on: July 22, 2009, 03:54:09 pm »


Racism....and with those policy positions, I would probably ask about his positions on eugenics.
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justrhyno
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« Reply #281 on: July 22, 2009, 07:54:30 pm »

Racism?  He took that quote from my drugs stance, if you had actually read it.  I must be some Bible-thumping, minority-hating, reactionary, white southerner in your eyes huh?  The reason why "illegal" drugs are "illegal" is because of people's safety.  I think the safety of the American people is more important than making a few bucks off of Mary J.  But obviously other people don't share that thought.
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Austere Religious Scholar
Kalwejt
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« Reply #282 on: July 22, 2009, 08:11:24 pm »

Death Penalty: Strongly oppose, even hate for multiple reasosn

Abortion rights: Strongly support, no one can force you to have an abortion, so don't take away this right from anyone

Universal health care: Strongly support

Any forms of censorship Strongly oppose

War in Afghanistan: Supports, but this was mess up Sad

War in Iraq: Strongly oppose for multiple reasons

Drugs: Supports legalize marijuana. This would significantly weak drug lords. Marijunana is not more harmful tham tobacco (I like tobacco Smiley )

Same-sex marriages and unions: Strongly support. I really don't know why this is a problem for some? No one force you be be in gay marriage so don't take away this right from anyone

Gun control: Strongly support

Taxes: Progressive

Euthanasia: Allow for terminally ill people who repeatly (and with clear mind) would ask to

Separation of church and state: Strongly support

Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Strongly support

Possible intervention in Iran: Strongly oppose, this will not solve any problem, more, would only strenght Khamenei and Co.

Israel: Strongly support right to exist and being safe, but Israeli government must be, in their best interest, encouraged to push more peaceful solutions
 
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Xahar
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« Reply #283 on: July 23, 2009, 12:20:11 am »

Racism?  He took that quote from my drugs stance, if you had actually read it.  I must be some Bible-thumping, minority-hating, reactionary, white southerner in your eyes huh?  The reason why "illegal" drugs are "illegal" is because of people's safety.  I think the safety of the American people is more important than making a few bucks off of Mary J.  But obviously other people don't share that thought.

I assume you support the banning of tobacco, which is far more dangerous. I also assume you support prohibition.
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pogo stick
JewishConservative
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« Reply #284 on: August 14, 2009, 01:47:12 pm »

Time to re-do this thing Sad

Social Issues (Social Conservative)

Abortion Sad Ban it 100% Ban it. Except in cases where mother's life is endangered
Gay Rights Sad Ban Gay marriage, Legalize Gay adoption. Oh and No civil unions
Illegal Immigration Sad Close borders,  make more border fences, deport illegals
Guns Sad Legalize all guns, no restrictions
Flag Burning Sad Ban it. It's not a constitutional right
War on Drugs Sad Continue the war. Ban drugs.
Smoking Sad Ban it. I see my dad suffer everyday smoking. Ban it.
Death Penalty Sad Support it 100%
Censorship Sad Support. A moral society, is a good society
Prostitution Sad Ban it. Yea, sorry Las Vegas Tongue
Affirmative Action Sad Oppose it
Stem Cell Research Sad Oppose 100%
Alcohol Sad Leave it legal. Leave drinking age at 21. But more regulations.
Assisted-Suicide Sad No. Just f***ing no.
Cloning Sad ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Foreign Policy (Hawkish, Far-right)

Israel Sad Support it's right to exist. Support $$$ Aid and Military Aid. Hate Palestinians
Intervention Sad Support. I'm a internationalist 
North Korea Sad End all "diplomacy" it's  obvious that war is the only option
Iran Sad Support invading, and overthrowing Amandemajad.
Iraq Sad Support the war. We did our job.
PATRIOT Act Sad Support. National security > Privacy
Defense Spending : Raise defense Spending.
Military Sad Proud supporter of U.S Military.
Torture Sad Support, only on terrorists
War on Terror Sad Support


Economic Policy (Center-right)

Federal Spending Sad Oppose. Spending will double the the deficit
Unions Sad Support. But we need to balance the labor  and corporate needs Strongly support, but don'tl et unions rule with iron fist
Free Trade Sad Against Tariffs. against protectionism, but am nuetral over all on free trade Neutral
Porkulus Package Sad Against it
Pork Barrel Spending Sad Against this garbage 100%
Gas : Support ANWAR and offshore Drilling.
Environment Sad The U.S Economy is more important then the environment, no government regulations. Don't believe in the "Climate change" or Global Warming theories.
Minimum Wage Sad Against raising it. It will hurt the economy in the long run. Also, I'd support a small raise  but anything over 9.00 dollars and you can forget about it
Social Security Sad Privatize it, at least partially.
Taxes Sad Against raising taxes on Anyone. Am against income tax, as it's unconstitutional. Support something that would make income taxes illegal or very low. Ban Gas, Estate, Inheritance taxes.
Education : Support Vouchers. People have the right to pick their own schools!



update time
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #285 on: August 14, 2009, 04:31:55 pm »

(Im basing this on UK issues)

Social Issues (Social Liberal, with a few notable exceptions)

Abortion : Leave as it is.
Gay Rights : Legalise gay marriage.
Illegal Immigration : Throw them in gaol.
Guns : Keep guns illegal.
Flag Burning : Let them do it.
War on Drugs : Legalise cannabis, keep everything else the same.
Smoking : Leave it as it is.
Death Penalty : Execute murderers, terrorists, spies
Censorship :  End it, altogether. No more banned films, no more censoring swear words on radio.
Prostitution : Legalise it, altogether.
Affirmative Action : is reverse discrimination.
Stem Cell Research : Support 100%
Alcohol : Raise drinking age to 21
Assisted-Suicide :  Yes, as long as they are of sound mind.
Cloning : No.

Foreign Policy (Isolationist, Commonwealth based)

Israel : Support it with aid.
Intervention : Oppose, quit NATO, the EU, and the WTO.
North Korea : Refuse to speak to them until they disarm their nuclear weapons.
Iran : As long as they wage nothing against Britain, leave them alone.
Iraq : Leave.
Defense Spending : Cut slightly.
Military : Maintain at current levels.
Torture : Oppose, in all cases.
War on Terror : Support, reluctantly.


Economic Policy (Austrian School)

Government Spending : Oppose, completely.
Unions :  Dont guarantee the rights of strikers.
Free Trade : Support, completely. No exceptions.
Environment :  Fight pollution as much as possible, get rid of all these stupid climate change taxes. Global warming is not a threat.
Minimum Wage : Against raising it.
Social Security : Privatize it, at least partially.
Taxes : Abolish inheritance, income, capital gains tax. Increase duties on alcohol, tobacco etc.
Education : Support Vouchers.
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Edgar Suit Larry
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« Reply #286 on: August 14, 2009, 07:56:01 pm »

Racism?  He took that quote from my drugs stance, if you had actually read it.  I must be some Bible-thumping, minority-hating, reactionary, white southerner in your eyes huh?  The reason why "illegal" drugs are "illegal" is because of people's safety.  I think the safety of the American people is more important than making a few bucks off of Mary J.  But obviously other people don't share that thought.
...and you know what stereotype caused pot to become illegal in 1937?

We tried making alcohol illegal in 1919, but because it was mostly white Catholic immigrants who drank (Bavarians,Irsh,Poles,Italians), people quickly came to their senses.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #287 on: September 02, 2009, 01:57:11 am »

Abortion: Support legality for first trimester, beyond that is up to the states.
Affirmative Action: Do not support in any way, shape, form, or color. Obviously discriminatory and leaves an impression that our government doesn't think minorities have the capacity to succeed on their own accomplishments.
Alternative Energy: Support researching new fuel sources and technologies, expanding all means of production, and harnessing solar and wind power, nuclear, geothermal, etc. Kitchen sink approach.
Death Penalty: Support for serious crimes with concrete evidence.
Drug Legalization: Personally am not too concerned, leave it up to the states, but I don't think substances like meth, etc. should be allowed. Far too dangerous.
Education: I have seen the worst (best?) of public schools. Support the construction of additional private schools and allowing parents to have easier access to private schools, regardless of any kind of religious affiliation. Support a charter system for failing schools. Oppose unionization of teachers. Easier access to college educations, vocational training, year-round schooling, advanced courses, reassessment of standardized testing procedures, etc. are all good methods.
Environmental Issues: Protect biodiversity, reduce pollution, recycle resources (makes sense from a capitalistic viewpoint regardless), reduce waste, clean air, soil, and water, cleaner agricultural technology and reduce dependence on coal/oil. That's the plan.
Euthanasia: Don't really see the big deal about it.
Evolution vs. Intelligent Design: I see no intelligence supporting the idea of "intelligent design."
Gay Marriage: Fine, but I honestly don't get why 14-20 year olds think this is the most important issue, ever, at all, in history.
Global Warming: Shouldn't even be on this list. Period.
Guns: Second Amendment is irrevocable.
Health care: All measures must be taken to reform health care. Reduce costs through tort reform, purchases across state lines. MSAs should be created. There should be a basic public availability to necessary medical resources. Pre-existing conditions can not be a cause for rejection. Insurance companies will not go unregulated. Support the rights of pharmaceutical companies to create and profit from products so that America can continue to develop groundbreaking cures and vaccines.
Illegal Immigration: What else to say? It's ILLEGAL. No ID card, driver's license, or schooling for their children. Background checks by employers before hiring mandated (good business practice, regardless).
PATRIOT Act: Needs repealed or modified to prevent this level of government intrusion.
Stem Cell Research: An opportunity to save more lives. Definitely a positive.
Spending/Debt: Out of control, needs reigned in. We need to work toward a balanced budget. Continuing to incur massive debt will cause the dollar to devalue seriously out of control.
Taxes: Even out the tax burden. Make taxes that don't disproportionately affect certain groups.
Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.
War: We don't need to blow up entire nations just because of a disagreement. Unless there is a serious threat to liberty and our nation/allies, we have other methods of diplomacy.
Welfare: Is not a job. Permanent existence on welfare should only be for the disabled. Limits and restrictions should be placed, along with drug testing.
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jfern
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« Reply #288 on: September 02, 2009, 02:19:59 am »

Abortion: Between a woman and her doctor

Affirmative Action: Oppose

Alternative Energy:  Increase research funding

Death Penalty: Oppose

Drug Legalization:  Weakly support

Education: More funding, less teaching to the test. Make it easier to fire bad teachers.

Environmental Issues: Increase protection, research technology that will help the environment. Encourage research for naturally occurring medical drugs.

Euthanasia: Support
.
Evolution vs. Intelligent Design: Evolution

Gay Marriage: Support

Global Warming: We are certainly in a period of climate change, chiefly from human activity

Guns: Gun control is useful in places like Oakland

Health care: Public option to increase competition and bring costs down.

Illegal Immigration: Crack down on employers

PATRIOT Act: Oppose

Stem Cell Research: Support

Spending/Debt: Raise taxes, cut defense, but obviously deficit spending will continute.

Taxes: Raise taxes on the rich

Trade: If the environment and labor is protected fine, otherwise increased protectionism.

War: Oppose

Welfare: We are in an era of limits. People should contribute to society.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #289 on: September 02, 2009, 02:29:47 am »

Holy sh**t, I mean, I disagree with some of what he put down, but Jfern's outline looks pretty damn reasonable.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #290 on: September 02, 2009, 02:30:30 am »

Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.

You know what's even more unfair? Backwardass Protectionist policies. If we had stayed with the old "Support America businesses" bullsh*t the old GOP wanked off to constantly we would probably be driving heavy ass Chevys. Don't give me that working man vs. multinational corporation crap either, there are many American corporations who would be orgasmic at the thought of the government punishing the hell out of foreign competition for their benefit and they would still screw over their workers. Why is it then that since America started making liberal trade relations with other nations that the overall standard of living kicks the hell out of what it was back in the good ole days when corporations could squash unions relentlessly without reproach? I find it very ironic how you view welfare as a handout yet can't see protectionism as the exact same thing. Maybe if American workers were more productive they wouldn't see their jobs going to China or Thailand, but no we have to let the great benefactorial government make up for the fact that Billy Bob was too much of a lazyass fratboy partier in college to keep his GPA above a 2.3 while his Chinese friend Tan was at the top of all of his classes! Maybe if Americans got off their own asses and competed with foreign labor, instead of asking the government to play daddy and break up the fight, they could get honest results without downgrading our own foreign relations and further destroying any hope for world peace. If you don't want American labor to become more productive, continue supporting backwardass protectionism. It is only by letting American labor face the realities of a global economy that they can become more productive, not by having Big Brother show up to fight their fights for them.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #291 on: September 02, 2009, 02:30:44 am »

Holy sh**t, I mean, I disagree with some of what he put down, but Jfern's outline looks pretty damn reasonable.

Mine didn't? Sad ...
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #292 on: September 02, 2009, 02:34:46 am »

Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.

You know what's even more unfair? Backwardass Protectionist policies. If we had stayed with the old "Support America businesses" bullsh*t the old GOP wanked off to constantly we would probably be driving heavy ass Chevys. Don't give me that working man vs. multinational corporation crap either, there are many American corporations who would be orgasmic at the thought of the government punishing the hell out of foreign competition for their benefit and they would still screw over their workers. Why is it then that since America started making liberal trade relations with other nations that the overall standard of living kicks the hell out of what it was back in the good ole days when corporations could squash unions relentlessly without reproach? I find it very ironic how you view welfare as a handout yet can't see protectionism as the exact same thing. Maybe if American workers were more productive they wouldn't see their jobs going to China or Thailand, but no we have to let the great benefactorial government make up for the fact that Billy Bob was too much of a lazyass fratboy partier in college to keep his GPA above a 2.3 while his Chinese friend Tan was at the top of all of his classes! Maybe if Americans got off their own asses and competed with foreign labor, instead of asking the government to play daddy and break up the fight, they could get honest results without downgrading our own foreign relations and further destroying any hope for world peace. If you don't want American labor to become more productive, continue supporting backwardass protectionism. It is only by letting American labor face the realities of a global economy that they can become more productive, not by having Big Brother show up to fight their fights for them.

The unions YOU SUPPORT make any kind of labor competitiveness impossible. If a job can be done by someone in Mexico at the same rate as in America, it will be done in Mexico- much more efficient and profitable for companies. So basically you support Americans having a standard living wage, but other nations being sh**tcanned. Well, if you really support the benefit of few at the expense of many... You might as well find a home in 1950s era Soviet Union.
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fezzyfestoon
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« Reply #293 on: September 02, 2009, 02:56:02 am »

Holy sh**t, I mean, I disagree with some of what he put down, but Jfern's outline looks pretty damn reasonable.

It's a shame he spends literally all his time making snide comments about Republicans rather than contributing.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #294 on: September 02, 2009, 03:02:24 am »
« Edited: September 02, 2009, 03:06:46 am by Mechman »

Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.

You know what's even more unfair? Backwardass Protectionist policies. If we had stayed with the old "Support America businesses" bullsh*t the old GOP wanked off to constantly we would probably be driving heavy ass Chevys. Don't give me that working man vs. multinational corporation crap either, there are many American corporations who would be orgasmic at the thought of the government punishing the hell out of foreign competition for their benefit and they would still screw over their workers. Why is it then that since America started making liberal trade relations with other nations that the overall standard of living kicks the hell out of what it was back in the good ole days when corporations could squash unions relentlessly without reproach? I find it very ironic how you view welfare as a handout yet can't see protectionism as the exact same thing. Maybe if American workers were more productive they wouldn't see their jobs going to China or Thailand, but no we have to let the great benefactorial government make up for the fact that Billy Bob was too much of a lazyass fratboy partier in college to keep his GPA above a 2.3 while his Chinese friend Tan was at the top of all of his classes! Maybe if Americans got off their own asses and competed with foreign labor, instead of asking the government to play daddy and break up the fight, they could get honest results without downgrading our own foreign relations and further destroying any hope for world peace. If you don't want American labor to become more productive, continue supporting backwardass protectionism. It is only by letting American labor face the realities of a global economy that they can become more productive, not by having Big Brother show up to fight their fights for them.

The unions YOU SUPPORT make any kind of labor competitiveness impossible. If a job can be done by someone in Mexico at the same rate as in America, it will be done in Mexico- much more efficient and profitable for companies. So basically you support Americans having a standard living wage, but other nations being sh**tcanned. Well, if you really support the benefit of few at the expense of many... You might as well find a home in 1950s era Soviet Union.

I don't actively support unions, I just don't believe corporations should have full authority to squash them. Also, compared to what those workers in poorer nations were facing before their evil evil American international business job, I say they would take a sweatshop job over say living life as a poor villager with little contact to the outside world. Not that that is justified, but their standard of living is higher than it was in the past. We can not expect for them to get better if we revert to the past, doing so would only discourage foreign workers from seeking jobs in American companies due to the reactionary trade policies their own country would enforce against American companies. Instead of having to work in a sweatshop with a "pathetic" wage, alot of those workers would get fired and released back into their way more sufferable lives before having that American job. Protectionism isn't just one sided: if we enact protectionist policies other countries would retaliate against American products and businesses. Jobs would be lost and our overall trade benefit would go down. Less money would go into the US due to other nation buying less of our stuff.
If you are suggesting that the US base it's trade policies on working conditions, then yes I could possibly see the light on that. If you are arguing that free trade is all evil and no good and protecitonism is great, I respectfully disagree.

I bolded that last part to emphasize that my opinion of you hasn't lessened, just that I disagree strongly. I bet most people on here I strongly disagree with on at least a few issues.
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Alexander Hamilton
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« Reply #295 on: September 02, 2009, 03:06:40 am »

Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.

You know what's even more unfair? Backwardass Protectionist policies. If we had stayed with the old "Support America businesses" bullsh*t the old GOP wanked off to constantly we would probably be driving heavy ass Chevys. Don't give me that working man vs. multinational corporation crap either, there are many American corporations who would be orgasmic at the thought of the government punishing the hell out of foreign competition for their benefit and they would still screw over their workers. Why is it then that since America started making liberal trade relations with other nations that the overall standard of living kicks the hell out of what it was back in the good ole days when corporations could squash unions relentlessly without reproach? I find it very ironic how you view welfare as a handout yet can't see protectionism as the exact same thing. Maybe if American workers were more productive they wouldn't see their jobs going to China or Thailand, but no we have to let the great benefactorial government make up for the fact that Billy Bob was too much of a lazyass fratboy partier in college to keep his GPA above a 2.3 while his Chinese friend Tan was at the top of all of his classes! Maybe if Americans got off their own asses and competed with foreign labor, instead of asking the government to play daddy and break up the fight, they could get honest results without downgrading our own foreign relations and further destroying any hope for world peace. If you don't want American labor to become more productive, continue supporting backwardass protectionism. It is only by letting American labor face the realities of a global economy that they can become more productive, not by having Big Brother show up to fight their fights for them.

The unions YOU SUPPORT make any kind of labor competitiveness impossible. If a job can be done by someone in Mexico at the same rate as in America, it will be done in Mexico- much more efficient and profitable for companies. So basically you support Americans having a standard living wage, but other nations being sh**tcanned. Well, if you really support the benefit of few at the expense of many... You might as well find a home in 1950s era Soviet Union.

I don't actively support unions, I just don't believe corporations should have full authority to squash them. Also, compared to what those workers in poorer nations were facing before their evil evil American international business job, I say they would take a sweatshop job over say living life as a poor villager with little contact to the outside world. Not that that is justified, but their standard of living is higher than it was in the past. We can not expect for them to get better if we revert to the past, doing so would only discourage foreign workers from seeking jobs in American companies due to the reactionary trade policies their own country would enforce against American companies. Instead of having to work in a sweatshop with a "pathetic" wage, alot of those workers would get fired and released back into their way more sufferable lives before having that American job. Protectionism isn't just one sided: if we enact protectionist policies other countries would retaliate against American products and businesses. Jobs would be lost and our overall trade benefit would go down. Less money would go into the US due to other nation buying less of our stuff.
If you are suggesting that the US base it's trade policies on working conditions, then yes I could possibly see the light on that. If you are arguing that free trade is all evil and no good and protecitonism is great, I respectfully disagree.

It is no surprise that the biggest supporters of "free" trade have also been the most heinous figures in American history- from Southern slaveowners to bastard businessmen, free trade has been their cause. But free trade policies don't help American workers- free trade policies don't help other countries' workers- they enslave them or create unemployment en masse. If all workers were paid the same comparative wage, with the same protections and benefits and regulations, etc. Free trade would work fine. But we don't live in that perfect world, therefore, we must adjust our policies to those which are beneficial to the nation as whole, and fair to those who are voiceless. Free trade is NOT a means of preventing war or creating peace.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #296 on: September 02, 2009, 03:24:01 am »
« Edited: September 02, 2009, 03:27:48 am by Mechman »

Trade: Needs reworked to make sure that we don't take advantage of poorer countries labor, at the expensive of losing our own jobs, all to the benefit of large multinational corporations that don't have the everyday struggle working Americans do. "Free" trade isn't free and it definitely isn't fair.

You know what's even more unfair? Backwardass Protectionist policies. If we had stayed with the old "Support America businesses" bullsh*t the old GOP wanked off to constantly we would probably be driving heavy ass Chevys. Don't give me that working man vs. multinational corporation crap either, there are many American corporations who would be orgasmic at the thought of the government punishing the hell out of foreign competition for their benefit and they would still screw over their workers. Why is it then that since America started making liberal trade relations with other nations that the overall standard of living kicks the hell out of what it was back in the good ole days when corporations could squash unions relentlessly without reproach? I find it very ironic how you view welfare as a handout yet can't see protectionism as the exact same thing. Maybe if American workers were more productive they wouldn't see their jobs going to China or Thailand, but no we have to let the great benefactorial government make up for the fact that Billy Bob was too much of a lazyass fratboy partier in college to keep his GPA above a 2.3 while his Chinese friend Tan was at the top of all of his classes! Maybe if Americans got off their own asses and competed with foreign labor, instead of asking the government to play daddy and break up the fight, they could get honest results without downgrading our own foreign relations and further destroying any hope for world peace. If you don't want American labor to become more productive, continue supporting backwardass protectionism. It is only by letting American labor face the realities of a global economy that they can become more productive, not by having Big Brother show up to fight their fights for them.

The unions YOU SUPPORT make any kind of labor competitiveness impossible. If a job can be done by someone in Mexico at the same rate as in America, it will be done in Mexico- much more efficient and profitable for companies. So basically you support Americans having a standard living wage, but other nations being sh**tcanned. Well, if you really support the benefit of few at the expense of many... You might as well find a home in 1950s era Soviet Union.

I don't actively support unions, I just don't believe corporations should have full authority to squash them. Also, compared to what those workers in poorer nations were facing before their evil evil American international business job, I say they would take a sweatshop job over say living life as a poor villager with little contact to the outside world. Not that that is justified, but their standard of living is higher than it was in the past. We can not expect for them to get better if we revert to the past, doing so would only discourage foreign workers from seeking jobs in American companies due to the reactionary trade policies their own country would enforce against American companies. Instead of having to work in a sweatshop with a "pathetic" wage, alot of those workers would get fired and released back into their way more sufferable lives before having that American job. Protectionism isn't just one sided: if we enact protectionist policies other countries would retaliate against American products and businesses. Jobs would be lost and our overall trade benefit would go down. Less money would go into the US due to other nation buying less of our stuff.
If you are suggesting that the US base it's trade policies on working conditions, then yes I could possibly see the light on that. If you are arguing that free trade is all evil and no good and protecitonism is great, I respectfully disagree.

It is no surprise that the biggest supporters of "free" trade have also been the most heinous figures in American history- from Southern slaveowners to bastard businessmen, free trade has been their cause. But free trade policies don't help American workers- free trade policies don't help other countries' workers- they enslave them or create unemployment en masse. If all workers were paid the same comparative wage, with the same protections and benefits and regulations, etc. Free trade would work fine. But we don't live in that perfect world, therefore, we must adjust our policies to those which are beneficial to the nation as whole, and fair to those who are voiceless. Free trade is NOT a means of preventing war or creating peace.

Yes and in a perfect world Protectionism (at least the kind your hero Hamilton subscribed to) would work. Nowdays such a policy would only discourage friendly trade relations between us and other nations and the US would end up relying total on self-sufficiency to create products. Sure the laborers may still have their jobs (at least in this country) but it wouldn't change the fact that the amount of resource used would be far greater and use up alot more of American land (thus creating environmental degradation) than the other choice. Also, due to lack of competition from foreign markets there would be less incentive for society to technologically advance and we would still have 500 lb refrigerators and 5000 lb Ford Fairlanes.

There are downsides to everything. Right now it seems like a mixed trade policy would work best, if only until other nations develop reasonable worker rights.
Believe me, I've already taken two courses over Economics. I don't say alot of this just out of personal bias.
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bullmoose88
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« Reply #297 on: September 02, 2009, 04:38:09 pm »

Holy sh**t, I mean, I disagree with some of what he put down, but Jfern's outline looks pretty damn reasonable.

It's a shame he spends literally all his time making snide comments about Republicans rather than contributing.

He's gotten better I think.
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Scam of God
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« Reply #298 on: September 12, 2009, 12:45:53 am »

^ I like you. We need more Republicans like you.
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Earth
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« Reply #299 on: September 12, 2009, 01:22:23 am »
« Edited: September 12, 2009, 01:38:17 am by Earth »

Just for shits and giggles, so I can see how I've changed over the last year or so.

Abortion: Support fully.
Separation of church and state: Also support fully. We need much more, to be honest.
Education: More decentralization, support ending federal involvement in curriculum.
Environmental Issues: Support increased protection, and support more land to be covered as federally protected.
Affirmative action: Would support if income based, not race.
Gun control: I oppose increasing gun control. Would like to see an armed, educated populace.
Death penalty: Vehemently against.
Flag burning: Support.
Euthanasia: On demand, like Comcast.
Prostitution: Also on demand. Just a service like any other. Support brothels, and streetwalking. Support unionization (wishful thinking).
Immigration: Support open borders. Support illegal immigration. Support amnesty.
Gay Rights: In favor of gay marriage, and adoption rights.
Drugs and Alcohol: Support complete, and total legalization. Support legalizing private production, also. Do not support government mandated 'potency' levels.
Censorship: Extremely oppose. In favor of reducing FCC controls over content.
Gambling: Support fully.
Language: No national language. No requirements.
Health care: Support a universal system.
Embryonic Stem Cell Research: Support fully.
Warrantless Wiretapping: Disgusting.
Unions: Support but with reform. Support decentralization, and power given back to members. Propose an anarcho-syndicalist like transformation.

Economic Issues

Taxes: Increase taxes on the rich.
Trade: Oppose free trade. Support protectionism.
Welfare: Support.
Regulations: Support increase.
Space Program: Support, but not a priority. Mars can wait. Neither of us are going anywhere.
Energy Policy: Support a concerted effort to develop alternate energy production, outside of nuclear. Hell, gimme my anti-gravity device, already.

Foreign Policy

War: Vehemently oppose in almost all circumstances.
United Nations: Generally oppose. A useless insult.
Israel: Support economic boycott, sanctions, and educational boycotts.
Foreign aid: Support without 'fine line' demands.
Iraq: Leave immediately.
Iran: Leave them be.
North Korea: Same as above. Support negotiations to release political prisoners, possibly taking them in as refugees, and whoever else would wish to emigrate.   
China: Reduce trade, open immigration further. 
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