SENATE BILL: Ukrainian Technical, Economical and Military Aid (Debating)

[Cincinnatus]

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Sponsor: Lumine

[Cincinnatus]

24 hours to begin advocating for this.

[TNF]

I'd rather not prop up a government that includes neo-nazis, thanks.

[Lumine]

I'd rather not prop up a government that includes neo-nazis, thanks.

Sbovoda is far right party, not a neo-nazi one, and I'd rather save that government from Putin, thank you very much. Besides, Poroshenko is the new President, and I doubt he will include Sbovoda in his government.

Now, going into a more detailed subject, this Act is based in OTL with a bill the US Congress passed some weeks ago, which I then adapted to our context while removing unnecessary parts. Recovery the assets stolen by Yanukovych's government and pro-Russian officers is something I find crucial both as a symbolic gesture and to help the Ukrainian government regain more stability. The need for economic aid is far too evident, as Russia has tried to strangle Ukraine by pushing for major increases in energy prices, which Ukraine obviously can't pay when the most rich region is filled with Russian backed insurgents. Of course, for that aid to come Ukraine must committ itself to democracy (as they are doing right now), use a good part of the aid to help the Tatars who have suffered from the loss of Crimea and cease any possible discrimination against sexual minorities (which I believe was a big concern back ago).

The military aid is not going to be popular here, I know that, but if we want to see Ukraine have the necessary strength to defeat the insurgents in Donetsk and prove that they can stand up to aggression we will need to help them as much as we can. In my condition of Special Envoy I met with President Turnichov and I was allowed to see the progress of some of the anti-insurgency operations, and the Ukrainian military needs more resources and better training, hence the amount of money allocated ($500 million). I understand $9.5 billion is a big amount of money, but the European Union alone has spent twice as that in aid, and Japan alone has sent a similar amount of aid. It's costly, I know, but if we really want to solve this crisis while actually help the people of Ukraine instead of limiting ourselves to empty speeches, we have to help Ukraine, and I call for the Senate to consider this Act very carefully instead of dismissing it right away.

[Sec. of State Superique]

The Secretary of External Affairs support this piece of legislation. It's from our understanding that the new government of Petro Poroshenko will not be allied with neo-nazi forces and we are totally favorable of helping Ukraine during this important moment of their political life. In any case, it wouldn't be bad to add a specific clause specifying that in case that the Ukrainian Government  promote human right abuses, then we funds should be cut. The funds shall only be allowed if the Ukrainian Government comply with Democracy, the rule of Law and the respect of minorities.

Moreover, we believe that those independent movements in East Ukraine are extremely dangerous for their country and that those insurgencies don't represent the majority of the population that lives in the regions were those protests are happening. We honestly and sincerely hope that a just solution for that matter arrives and we would not oppose a reform for more Oblast's Autonomy if the parties involved on that issue approve that.

[TNF]

Svoboda is a neo-Nazi party.

[Lumine]

Svoboda is a neo-Nazi party.

Any other thoughts on the bill, Senator? After all, discussing the ideology of a certain party is probably not the most important part here.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

If there are responsible NGOs then I can approve supporting them, but Ukraine's government has had a systemic corruption problem, which we aren't going to fix by giving them money. Tatar-language schools and anti-discrimination laws don't really address this problem.

[DemPGH]

As I'm thinking right now about foreign policy, for me the questions are, why us, and why this situation? I don't see it, presently, aside from the corruption problems and the nature of who we'd be supporting, as noted by others.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Certainly at these levels, we do need some honest third parties handling the money like shua said.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

As I'm thinking right now about foreign policy, for me the questions are, why us, and why this situation? I don't see it, presently, aside from the corruption problems and the nature of who we'd be supporting, as noted by others.

Why not us? It's always nice to save a democratic country from Novorossiyism.

[Lumine]

As I'm thinking right now about foreign policy, for me the questions are, why us, and why this situation? I don't see it, presently, aside from the corruption problems and the nature of who we'd be supporting, as noted by others.

Why not us? It's always nice to save a democratic country from Novorossiyism.

Precisely, and I thank the Senator for that comment.

First, we have a commitment to Ukraine in light of the Budapest Memorandum of 1994, in which we have stated that we respect Ukraine's borders and refrain from using economic pressure on them to influence politics (among other issues regarding their nuclear arsenal). Russia has repeatedly ignored those terms over and over again, and you might say our credibility is on the line here. Second, I feel Russia is a state that should be confronted over multiple aggressions and breaches of international law like what we have seen in Chechnya, Georgia and now in Ukraine, and the fact remains that our country has the capability to do so. The European Union and other nations like Japan have helped Ukraine as much as they can, but our intervention or the lack of it is what will prove decisive here. It's clear now that China won't stand on the way of the Russians, and once again, France and the United Kingdom can't do it alone. Third, Ukraine is a potential ally and a state that desires to enter the EU and to enjoy from a stronger relationship with our nation (as I confirmed with President Turnichov), the Senate itself passed an Act supporting Ukraine (even if the language was toned down) and the SoEA and by extension the administration have supported Ukraine as well.

Ukraine needs the help to overcome the economical and military difficulties unless we want to see that nation torn by civil war and Russian supremacy, and I believe we have to step in and help them as much as we can. Words alone are not enough in diplomacy, and much less in this world so filled with empty speeches, I feel we need actions.

If there are responsible NGOs then I can approve supporting them, but Ukraine's government has had a systemic corruption problem, which we aren't going to fix by giving them money. Tatar-language schools and anti-discrimination laws don't really address this problem.

I acknowledge that as a potential problem, just as I acknowledge Superique's ideas over human rights. I am willing to trust President Poroshenko, but I wouldn't mind amending this bill to include some restrictions if his government is not committed to Democracy, the rule of law and the respect for minorities, and to include a responsible NGO as well if the Senate is interested in that possibility.

Any suggestions for the indicated organism?

[TNF]

Why is it our job to help the Ukrainian government? Why can't we just mind our own business and focus on the real issues we have at home? (an economy dominated by non-working parasites)

We don't have to play world police, and we shouldn't. Senator Lumine's drive to transform Atlasia into a global policeman is backwards and insane. We've seen how that works out in real life. Let's bring all the troops home and send them to Wall Street, where they're actually needed.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Why is it our job to help the Ukrainian government? Why can't we just mind our own business and focus on the real issues we have at home? (an economy dominated by non-working parasites)

We don't have to play world police, and we shouldn't. Senator Lumine's drive to transform Atlasia into a global policeman is backwards and insane. We've seen how that works out in real life. Let's bring all the troops home and send them to Wall Street, where they're actually needed.

If we don't police the world, who will? Who will stick up for the defenseless? Why can't we tackle multiple issues at once? Why can't we use normal police on Wall Street instead of soldiers? Are soldiers even qualified to make arrests?

[Lumine]

Why is it our job to help the Ukrainian government? Why can't we just mind our own business and focus on the real issues we have at home? (an economy dominated by non-working parasites)

We don't have to play world police, and we shouldn't. Senator Lumine's drive to transform Atlasia into a global policeman is backwards and insane. We've seen how that works out in real life. Let's bring all the troops home and send them to Wall Street, where they're actually needed.

Perhaps because we're the only ones who can make the difference here?

I'm not advocating to play world police and send our troops there and then liberate Mars, Jupiter and god knows which place, I'm advocating for certain types of aid. "Mind our own business" sounds nice as the typical political sound bite, but every single time that phrase has been uttered it becomes an excuse for isolationalism, which as we have seen during the past century only leads to worse problems.

I don't wish to get off topic, but last time I checked capitalism was working very well (better than other systems I've seen), so I really fail to see the need to mock the ongoing debate by shifting discussion to the economic system.

[Maxwell]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

[Maxwell]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

[Maxwell]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

Who is Mike Godwin?

[Maxwell]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

Who is Mike Godwin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[windjammer]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Maybe preventing an another Hitler?

Putin's not Hitler. Say what you will about Putin, he's certainly not that.

Putin is as imperialist and warmonger as Hitler.

Mike Godwin would frown upon you

Who is Mike Godwin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Well, with a subject like Ukraine, it wasn't really difficult

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I appreciate the conversation, and truth be told, I am deeply in favor of capitalism, but honestly I probably agree more with Senator TNF on what our foreign policy should be. What makes this part of our business? We already have a lot of issues we need to look at.

Business? We've a comprehensive ocean of business, and I'll be damned if helping the free peoples of the world keep out of the clutches of tyranny isn't somewhere in that ocean!

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Ah what, Alfred?



Generally I favor minimizing entanglements but then part of me says sometimes you can minimize future entanglements with some involvement now, so it is a tough one for me.