If Wal-Mart was unionized...

[opebo]

OK, dibble, explain to me your budget for living on $6/hour.  Well in fairness lets say $6.50 as that's probably more of an average WalMart wage.  That's $260/week before taxes, assuming 40 hours.  But does Walmart employ anyone full time?  I doubt it, but we'll assume they do.  Ok take away taxes, say 10%...  that leaves $234/week, or $936/month. 

Rent in Missouri is typically about $500/month.  Food, I don't know much about.  A car would obviously be out of the question.. but how to get to WalMart?  Your thoughts?

[John Dibble]

OK, dibble, explain to me your budget for living on $6/hour.  Well in fairness lets say $6.50 as that's probably more of an average WalMart wage.  That's $260/week before taxes, assuming 40 hours.  But does Walmart employ anyone full time?  I doubt it, but we'll assume they do.  Ok take away taxes, say 10%...  that leaves $234/week, or $936/month. 

Rent in Missouri is typically about $500/month.  Food, I don't know much about.  A car would obviously be out of the question.. but how to get to WalMart?  Your thoughts?

Ok, one thing, you need some FACTS. An average Wal-Mart associate makes about $8.00 an hour with about 32 hours a week--a monthly gross of about $1,000. Also, I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that the lower end of the spectrum are mostly teenagers working part time.

But let's go with the pay you proposed - $6.50 an hour fulltime, or $936 a month. It won't be a life of luxury, but I can survive comfortably.

Now, your assertion about the car. A brand new car would be out of the question, for sure, but there are cheap used cars one can get. One can get them from various sources, be they dealers or owners. Since I'm on a budget, owner would probably be cheaper, so I'll go with that. I could try ebay, here, here, or if I was willing to put in a little work this would be good, or various others from there or classified ads(look them up if you don't believe me). For cheap cars like these, I could make low monthly payments if necessary, which would only go into my budget a bit. Let's say I get the $1800, and can make payments of $100/month, adding on interest making it a total of $2400 for two years of payments. So, this brings my monthly budget down to $836/month. Add $50 a month for cheap car insurance, leaving me with $786/month left. Conversely, I could carpool to work, or take a bus or rail if one is available, like MARTA in Atlanta, which I could get an unlimited ride pass for for $52/month, leaving me instead with $884/month. So we'll have 2 budgets now - car budget and bus budget, which will depend on where I live.

Now, I know for a fact how much I can stretch a budget as far as food goes - I'm a college student afterall. I definitely won't starve if I buy cheap and in bulk wherever possible, and I can still have some relatively tasty food(not the greatest, but much better than catfood). We'll say $50/week, or $200 a month. This leaves us with $586 month on car, $684 on bus/rail.

Now, rent. I'm not a dumbass - I'll find a way to cut costs. First and most obvious cost cutter is to get at least one roommate. Did some searching for Missouri apartments, and found a number of 2 bedroom apartments for $500/month. Good ones, too. Split the cost with a roommate, $250 a month. (Also, found studio and 1 bedrooms for $310 and #370, respectively) This leaves our budgets at $336 car and $434 bus/rail.

Now, given our remaining amounts, there are of course other costs to consider, such as gas for the car in the car budget, or utilities in the apartment that aren't included. However, I can pay these other expenses with the remaining cash if I am careful to conserve, possibly having enough to put some in the bank or have a little fun with.

[Jake]

opebo just got served, nice post John

[WalterMitty]

OK, dibble, explain to me your budget for living on $6/hour.  Well in fairness lets say $6.50 as that's probably more of an average WalMart wage.  That's $260/week before taxes, assuming 40 hours.  But does Walmart employ anyone full time?  I doubt it, but we'll assume they do.  Ok take away taxes, say 10%...  that leaves $234/week, or $936/month. 

Rent in Missouri is typically about $500/month.  Food, I don't know much about.  A car would obviously be out of the question.. but how to get to WalMart?  Your thoughts?

ok let me get this straight.  wal mart doesnt employ anyone full time at $6.50 an hour?  how many people would they employ full time at your new minimum wage of $15?  oh..but your 'new welfare' would take care of everyone.

that is just idiocy,  when you get a chance, you might want to check into the real world.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Working for Walmart is not exactly a good job, a well paid job or even a dignified job, but what Opebo and similer latte drinking airy fairy liberal cranks don't seem to realise is that it's still a job and that's enough for people living right above what seems to them as a sort of abyss.

Unemployment is soul destroying. Very, very few people who can work choose not to.

[danwxman]

The reason I believe Wal-Mart should be unionized is not so much for higher wages (although that should be strived for as well) but mostly for health insurance. Most Wal-Mart employees get their health insurance from the government. Do you know what kind of strain that puts on the system?

[John Dibble]

Working for Walmart is not exactly a good job, a well paid job or even a dignified job, but what Opebo and similer latte drinking airy fairy liberal cranks don't seem to realise is that it's still a job and that's enough for people living right above what seems to them as a sort of abyss.

Unemployment is soul destroying. Very, very few people who can work choose not to.

Al, you just went up a couple notches as far as respect goes.

[opebo]

Ok, one thing, you need some FACTS. An average Wal-Mart associate makes about $8.00 an hour with about 32 hours a week--a monthly gross of about $1,000.

Well, that amounts to about the same monthly amount as my guess.  Where do you get the figure of $8.00 for a Wal-Mart worker?

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I'm not sure who you think would finance to a WalMart worker, or what interest rate you're assuming, but I'm quite sure it would be an exceedingly high one.  Or as the 'dealer-financed' used car sharks do it here - they jack up the price of the worn-out old car hugely, knowing that their destitute purchasers have no choice as they have no credit.  I think if you're going to own a car that old you might want to add another $100/month for repairs.  And don't forget gas, say another $100/month.

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Well in fact WalMarts and public transportation are almost never found in the same areas.

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Actually on the WalMart pay scale mightn't one be eligable for Food Stamps?  Certainly one would be if one had any dependants.  The Taxpayer subsidizing Walmart yet again.  

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Impressive.  I should note that those were almost certainly in rural areas or the ghetto, but in fairness most Walmarts are in fairly rural areas.

So, overall, my hat is off to you, and I believe you might be able to survive at that level.  However the one area I would strongly dispute would be the automotive costs.  However I suppose the poor could ride bicycles or walk.. or hitchhike.

[opebo]

Working for Walmart is not exactly a good job, a well paid job or even a dignified job, but what Opebo and similer latte drinking airy fairy liberal cranks don't seem to realise is that it's still a job and that's enough for people living right above what seems to them as a sort of abyss.

Unemployment is soul destroying. Very, very few people who can work choose not to.

I certainly choose not to!

But the point was that in a society that had a $15 an hour minimum wage, we would also provide generous welfare that would be a better standard of living than the current miserable Wal-Mart level.

[opebo]

The reason I believe Wal-Mart should be unionized is not so much for higher wages (although that should be strived for as well) but mostly for health insurance. Most Wal-Mart employees get their health insurance from the government. Do you know what kind of strain that puts on the system?

Correct danwxman - yet another example of how the taxpayer subsidizes corporations like Wal-Mart.

[WalterMitty]

"But minimum wage laws are authoritarian interventions in private interactions.  If we were more honest with ourselves we'd recognize that the working class is inevitably going to lead a poor sort of life, and no amount of restricting of freedom can change that."--opebo july 20,2004

[opebo]

"But minimum wage laws are authoritarian interventions in private interactions.  If we were more honest with ourselves we'd recognize that the working class is inevitably going to lead a poor sort of life, and no amount of restricting of freedom can change that."--opebo july 20,2004

That is a reasonable point of view for an upper-class person who is certain he will never have to work.  However when I made that statement I believe I was asserting that by definition the working class would have a poor life because they have to work.  A rather Victorian point of view.  I do still believe that is a poor kind of life, whatever your income, because of the loss of your precious time.  Most people, it seems, have lower standards than I on that front. 

So really all we are talking about is how relatively bad it is compared to the lives of the owners.  Sure, in my view if you have to work you're wasting your life, but perhaps we can make the best of a bad situation.  I suppose it is impractical for everyone to join the leisure class, but shouldn't the working class make the political demand of a decent, livable wage?  If it doesn't it is rather foolish.

[John Dibble]

Ok, one thing, you need some FACTS. An average Wal-Mart associate makes about $8.00 an hour with about 32 hours a week--a monthly gross of about $1,000.

Well, that amounts to about the same monthly amount as my guess.  Where do you get the figure of $8.00 for a Wal-Mart worker?

Actually, from people bitching about Wal-Mart, lol: http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_sheets_and_backgrounder/walmart/wages.cfm

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I'm not sure who you think would finance to a WalMart worker, or what interest rate you're assuming, but I'm quite sure it would be an exceedingly high one.  Or as the 'dealer-financed' used car sharks do it here - they jack up the price of the worn-out old car hugely, knowing that their destitute purchasers have no choice as they have no credit.  I think if you're going to own a car that old you might want to add another $100/month for repairs.  And don't forget gas, say another $100/month.
[/quote]

Yeah, I didn't include gas in my calculations(I did mention it in the leftovers section though). As far as repairs on old cars go, it's not really a problem if you get a tuneup once every year. My aunt drives a car that is like 20 years old that belonged to my dad, and it still runs fine. Like with healthcare, the cheapest and most effective treatment for a problem is to prevent it from occuring in the first place.

Now, the interest rate I included was pretty high I think - it added $600 to the car in the first place, and only 6 months of payments extra, so according to my calculations it would be something like 20%. You'll also noted I specifically stated I'd buy from an owner, rather than a dealer, mainly because the price of the car wouldn't be jacked up. Of course, what is important when a dealer considers if he'll sell to you is not necessarily your job, but rather your credit rating - are you good at ensuring you pay off your credit in time. I don't touch credit, and when I do I pay swiftly, so even at that wage I could get a car from a dealer if I really wanted. The real reason people with lower wages have a tendency to get accepted for credit less is because they have a tendency to abuse it - by the time they realize credit cards aren't a magic money tree they are in trouble.

Now, I'm gonna say the one thing I did not mention that I did have some trouble with - retirement savings. I looked at savings accounts, cds, and others. I determined the best saving would be some type of mutual fund like a 401k - the interest rate wouldn't be set in stone since it relies on the market, but ultimately you'd make the most money. Calculating an average return of 6% a year, and working for 40 years and putting $1200 a year in the fund, we're looking at $196,857 saved by retirement. Doesn't seem like much, but on the other hand given my current cost of living, it would give me 17 years of money to live on if that was my only source of money(there's social security too), and this doesn't include the money that can be earned from interest beyond this point from the money I don't touch. Of course, this doesn't take into account any inflation or any wage increases I may get(which would happen if inflation occured to any large degree, but if I worked Wal-Mart that long and they didn't fire me I'm sure I'd be promoted to manager or some other higher paying position at some point).

[John Dibble]

"But minimum wage laws are authoritarian interventions in private interactions.  If we were more honest with ourselves we'd recognize that the working class is inevitably going to lead a poor sort of life, and no amount of restricting of freedom can change that."--opebo july 20,2004

That is a reasonable point of view for an upper-class person who is certain he will never have to work.  However when I made that statement I believe I was asserting that by definition the working class would have a poor life because they have to work.  A rather Victorian point of view.  I do still believe that is a poor kind of life, whatever your income, because of the loss of your precious time.  Most people, it seems, have lower standards than I on that front. 

So really all we are talking about is how relatively bad it is compared to the lives of the owners.  Sure, in my view if you have to work you're wasting your life, but perhaps we can make the best of a bad situation.  I suppose it is impractical for everyone to join the leisure class, but shouldn't the working class make the political demand of a decent, livable wage?  If it doesn't it is rather foolish.

Well, many people actually enjoy work. I know I enjoy my job.

[opebo]

You'll also noted I specifically stated I'd buy from an owner, rather than a dealer, mainly because the price of the car wouldn't be jacked up.

You couldn't buy from an owner because private sellers do not want to get into the business of financing their old cars.  You would have to buy from a shark.

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Income level matters as well.

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Hah, this was a very offensive paragraph - those dumb poor (probably negros) can't handle the majic credit card.  The reason they have bad credit is usually simply that they have no money.  As often as not they have never had a credit card, and their bad credit comes from evictions from apartments.

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Oh man, the idea of working at Wal-Mart till 'retirement' is enough to cause suicide.  So, I do take your point however, survival is possible, though of the barest and most meager nature.  Certainly reproducing is not possible.  Also, why would this fellow not vote for politicians who would increase his wage?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The reason I believe Wal-Mart should be unionized is not so much for higher wages (although that should be strived for as well) but mostly for health insurance.

Personally, I wish we would get away from the idea of employer provided health care.  It’s only due to a quirk of the WWII wage and price controls that employer provided health care became something considered to be expected from good employers.  With wages capped, employers who needed workers had to compete for scarce labor on the basis of fringe benefits such as health insurance.  Looked at realistically, employer provided insurance is actually a contributing factor to the weakness of unions.  Workers who have developed pre-existing consitions (or who have a dependant with one) are far less likely to risk losing insurance.  To restore balance to the labor market we need to provide alternatives to employer provided insurance, not mandate it.

[John Dibble]

You'll also noted I specifically stated I'd buy from an owner, rather than a dealer, mainly because the price of the car wouldn't be jacked up.

You couldn't buy from an owner because private sellers do not want to get into the business of financing their old cars.  You would have to buy from a shark.

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Income level matters as well.

Well, it depends on how financing is done. Owner do sell their own cars, though generally for cash up front. What I'd do is take out a small loan from a bank and pay on that rather than the car itself.

As far as dealers and income, I didn't say it didn't matter, just that credit rating is an important factor.

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Hah, this was a very offensive paragraph - those dumb poor (probably negros) can't handle the majic credit card.  The reason they have bad credit is usually simply that they have no money.  As often as not they have never had a credit card, and their bad credit comes from evictions from apartments.
[/quote]

Well, poor people aren't the only ones with credit problems. Lots of people misuse credit. Of course, you'll note that evictions like that generally happen because of credit misuse.

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Oh man, the idea of working at Wal-Mart till 'retirement' is enough to cause suicide.  So, I do take your point however, survival is possible, though of the barest and most meager nature.  Certainly reproducing is not possible.  Also, why would this fellow not vote for politicians who would increase his wage?
[/quote]

Well, I wouldn't want to work there for life either(though if you think Wal-Mart is bad, try working at a Burger King for a few weeks), and I'm sure most people don't, but I was just providing an example. And, as I said, you'd probably be promoted to manager or some other position if you worked there for any length of time. I'm not sure how much a Wal-Mart manager makes, but I'm sure it's more than $8/hour, since they must know the ins and outs of pretty much every position.

As for reproducing, you certainly wouldn't want to have a family going into this situation, but reproduction is possible. First off, marry before reproducing, and having a wife that also has an income would also be important. Second, save some money before conceiving. Planning is the main thing you have to do here if you want it to work.

[WalterMitty]

just for the record, ive noticed wal mart employees tend to reproduce at a high rate

[danwxman]

just for the record, ive noticed wal mart employees tend to reproduce at a high rate

So do Wal-Mart customers.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I certainly choose not to!

In other words you do not understand working class folks or there problems

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How on earth is a minimum wage that high going to be paid for? What a minimum wage that high would do, would wipe out pretty much every small business still left and result in WalMart et al taking over... and because of the inevitable inflation (you know what that is, right?) that $15 is probably going to be less, relativily speaking, than what someone on the minimum wage is taking home now.
And the people who would be hurt the most would be skilled manual workers because, in relative terms, their wages would collapse to below a level where they can support their families.
I'm all in favour of having a minimum wage and I'm all in favour of increasing it when nessessary. But raising it that high would have terrible results.

[opebo]

I certainly choose not to!

In other words you do not understand working class folks or there problems

I am skeptical of the practice of identifying one's self worth with one's labour, particularly labour of such low status.  Have you ever seen the film 'The Last Laugh' by F.W. Murnau?  Great depiction of working class hubris and one of my favorite films of all time:
http://www.sloppyfilms.com/murnau/lalaugh.htm
http://www.moma.org/collection/depts/film_media/blowups/film_media_006.html
http://www.ebertfest.com/two/last_laugh_rev.htm

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I think you are too cautious in your militancy for your class.  $15/hour isn't all that much.  What is the percentage of overhead or costs at a Wal-Mart store that comes from American labour?  Anyone?

[John Dibble]

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I think you are too cautious in your militancy for your class.  $15/hour isn't all that much.  What is the percentage of overhead or costs at a Wal-Mart store that comes from American labour?  Anyone?

Well, it's not just Wal-Mart that needs to be considered. Say a small business has 40 employees, a fast food joint let's say, wage averaging $7/hr and work time averaging 30 hours weekly(they have both part-time teenagers and full time workers). So, under your plan the average wage will increase by $8/hr, or $11,520/yr. When you total this up for 40 employees, you get a total increase in expenditure of $460,800 - no small chunk of change.

Now, let's look at a particular Wal-Mart. This one should do. "The proposed Wal-Mart would employ about 400 people. The average pay would be about $8.50 per hour." Now, let's use the average work time of 32 hours from last time. So, we get an average increase of $6.50/hr, or $9,984/yr. Total that up for all 400 employees and we get an annual expenditure increase of $3,993,600. Once again, not a small chunk of change.

[opebo]

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I think you are too cautious in your militancy for your class.  $15/hour isn't all that much.  What is the percentage of overhead or costs at a Wal-Mart store that comes from American labour?  Anyone?

Well, it's not just Wal-Mart that needs to be considered. Say a small business has 40 employees, a fast food joint let's say, wage averaging $7/hr and work time averaging 30 hours weekly(they have both part-time teenagers and full time workers). So, under your plan the average wage will increase by $8/hr, or $11,520/yr. When you total this up for 40 employees, you get a total increase in expenditure of $460,800 - no small chunk of change.

Now, let's look at a particular Wal-Mart. This one should do. "The proposed Wal-Mart would employ about 400 people. The average pay would be about $8.50 per hour." Now, let's use the average work time of 32 hours from last time. So, we get an average increase of $6.50/hr, or $9,984/yr. Total that up for all 400 employees and we get an annual expenditure increase of $3,993,600. Once again, not a small chunk of change.

But in either case, not a big increase in the price of burgers or Wal-Mart junk-merchandise, when spread over a year's volume.

What is the typical annual revenue of a burger 'restaurant', or a Wal-Mart?

[John Dibble]

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I think you are too cautious in your militancy for your class.  $15/hour isn't all that much.  What is the percentage of overhead or costs at a Wal-Mart store that comes from American labour?  Anyone?

Well, it's not just Wal-Mart that needs to be considered. Say a small business has 40 employees, a fast food joint let's say, wage averaging $7/hr and work time averaging 30 hours weekly(they have both part-time teenagers and full time workers). So, under your plan the average wage will increase by $8/hr, or $11,520/yr. When you total this up for 40 employees, you get a total increase in expenditure of $460,800 - no small chunk of change.

Now, let's look at a particular Wal-Mart. This one should do. "The proposed Wal-Mart would employ about 400 people. The average pay would be about $8.50 per hour." Now, let's use the average work time of 32 hours from last time. So, we get an average increase of $6.50/hr, or $9,984/yr. Total that up for all 400 employees and we get an annual expenditure increase of $3,993,600. Once again, not a small chunk of change.

But in either case, not a big increase in the price of burgers or Wal-Mart junk-merchandise, when spread over a year's volume.

What is the typical annual revenue of a burger 'restaurant', or a Wal-Mart?

Why do we always have to be the ones to look these things up for you? Look it up yourself for a change!

[opebo]

I couldn't find anything specific but company wide revenues are were about $260 billion a year or two ago:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4573885/
I have had some difficulty find anything on the number of employees but I believe it is around 700,000 workers at around 3,000 stores.

By my calculations increasing the minimum wage to $15/hour would raise WalMart's costs about 4.6%.