Public Fuel and Power Act of 2014 (Final vote)

[Simfan34]

So this fails then, it looks like. No matter, I'll simply reintroduce it into the queue and we can resume debate, since it looks like at least the majority actually wants to pass this bill, they just don't feel entirely comfortable with the version as is proposed.

In TNF's Atlasia, 70% against is a majority for. Things are truly going to rot.

[President Tyrion]

So this fails then, it looks like. No matter, I'll simply reintroduce it into the queue and we can resume debate, since it looks like at least the majority actually wants to pass this bill, they just don't feel entirely comfortable with the version as is proposed.

In TNF's Atlasia, 70% against is a majority for. Things are truly going to rot.

C'mon, you're better than that.

The survey was about this bill, and this bill only, which was rejected by the Senate. The poll was not about nationalizing fuel and power.

[Adam Griffin]

So this fails then, it looks like. No matter, I'll simply reintroduce it into the queue and we can resume debate, since it looks like at least the majority actually wants to pass this bill, they just don't feel entirely comfortable with the version as is proposed.

In TNF's Atlasia, 70% against is a majority for. Things are truly going to rot.

Obviously he means the Senate, but yes, as Tyrion stated, a majority of the country supports the broader premise.

You gotta love how someone like Simfan is all for the centralization of power and decision-making - along with rampant authoritarianism - unless of course the decisions being made don't fit his ideology. He obviously has no credibility in this debate, and our GM should whip him from here to Shanghai for blatantly throwing out cost estimates not approved by the Game Moderator's office.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I think you guys are making big assumptions about where the people stand on this. Plus, there was an option for a modified version, which one can assume would've addressed the logistical hangups with the bill.

[Simfan34]

Well let me repeat the words of Senator TNF- "the majority actually wants to pass this bill". This particular bill. By all means, we can poll support for nationalisation of the energy industry and see whether or not people support that. But there is no interpretation, no data, whatsoever that would allow one to conclude that a majority of anything supports this bill, or as far as we know, that "a majority of the country supports the broader premise" of nationalisation of that sector. Never mind the fact the poll had a "with modifications" option.

As for my estimate it was simply derived from the revenues of that sector, easily found online. It was in response to President Duke's question; if I were you I'd be more concerned with the lack of debate on this bill. This is ridiculous.

[Adam Griffin]

Well let me repeat the words of Senator TNF- "the majority actually wants to pass this bill". This particular bill.

Shhh

By all means, we can poll support for nationalisation of the energy industry and see whether or not people support that. But there is no interpretation, no data, whatsoever that would allow one to conclude that a majority of anything supports this bill, or as far as we know, that "a majority of the country supports the broader premise" of nationalisation of that sector. Never mind the fact the poll had a "with modifications" option.

As for my estimate it was simply derived from the revenues of that sector, easily found online. It was in response to President Duke's question; if I were you I'd be more concerned with the lack of debate on this bill. This is ridiculous.

A majority of the duly-elected Senators support it. A majority of the voters elected a President who openly supports the premise. I think that's the only polling we need. Despite your desire to turn everything into a popularity contest, you'd be wise to look at Labor's track record at completely bending opinion to our will when possible, and short-circuiting it when it's not.

[President Tyrion]

Well let me repeat the words of Senator TNF- "the majority actually wants to pass this bill". This particular bill.

Yeah, but any reasonable interpretation of those words would imply that he thinks a majority of Senators exists to pass this bill provided the swing voters are placated.

You can quote surveys all you want (and it would be reasonable to do so in a different context), but let's not get caught up in the rigamarole of what he said. It's pretty clear what he meant by it.

[Simfan34]

Well let me repeat the words of Senator TNF- "the majority actually wants to pass this bill". This particular bill.

Shhh

By all means, we can poll support for nationalisation of the energy industry and see whether or not people support that. But there is no interpretation, no data, whatsoever that would allow one to conclude that a majority of anything supports this bill, or as far as we know, that "a majority of the country supports the broader premise" of nationalisation of that sector. Never mind the fact the poll had a "with modifications" option.

As for my estimate it was simply derived from the revenues of that sector, easily found online. It was in response to President Duke's question; if I were you I'd be more concerned with the lack of debate on this bill. This is ridiculous.

A majority of the duly-elected Senators support it. A majority of the voters elected a President who openly supports the premise. I think that's the only polling we need. Despite your desire to turn everything into a popularity contest, you'd be wise to look at Labor's track record at completely bending opinion to our will when possible, and short-circuiting it when it's not.

I count five Senators.

Well let me repeat the words of Senator TNF- "the majority actually wants to pass this bill". This particular bill.

Yeah, but any reasonable interpretation of those words would imply that he thinks a majority of Senators exists to pass this bill provided the swing voters are placated.

You can quote surveys all you want (and it would be reasonable to do so in a different context), but let's not get caught up in the rigamarole of what he said. It's pretty clear what he meant by it.

That's quite fine,  and you're not really wrong, but the fact is there is no evidence that a majority of the population supports this move.

[Napoleon]

Calm down everyone ill have a cost estimate that isn't just a political talking point coming your way.

[Adam Griffin]

I count five Senators.

Do you do fractions? How about 6/11?

[Simfan34]

I count five Senators.

Do you do fractions? How about 6/11?

Ah, yes, I forgot there is a VP now... but does TheCranberry support this? I look forwards to the debate, and seeing the motivations behind this bill, and I hope it will be debated and justified rather than merely being shoved through without debate because... socialism.

Calm down everyone ill have a cost estimate that isn't just a political talking point coming your way.

Good to hear, Mr GM.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

There is no VP until the VP is confirmed by six or more senators.

[Adam Griffin]

Ah, yes, I forgot there is a VP now... but does TheCranberry support this? I look forwards to the debate, and seeing the motivations behind this bill, and I hope it will be debated and justified rather than merely being shoved through without debate because... socialism.

No Laborite is subject to a litmus test, but precedent tells us quite clearly that any elected Laborite who consistently objects to the main tenets of this party (labor rights and public ownership of base resources being at its core) finds it nearly impossible to be elected or re-elected when they face the Labor electorate.

There is no VP until the VP is confirmed by six or more senators.

Which will obviously occur before the next discussion and vote on this bill occurs. Any attempts to blatantly politicize the appointment of the President's choice as VP would no doubt have negative political consequences for the parties involved in such an affair and/or fail ridiculously, again as precedent suggests.

[Napoleon]

There is no VP until the VP is confirmed by six or more senators.

Very true I suppose things can get interesting here.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Just putting it out there.

[Simfan34]

Yes, let's hope things go smoothly. I will just say that I welcome a good debate on this bill and thorough justification for it; it would be a shame if it were to be "short-circuited", as Adam put it, for political expediency.

[DemPGH]

So this fails then, it looks like. No matter, I'll simply reintroduce it into the queue and we can resume debate, since it looks like at least the majority actually wants to pass this bill, they just don't feel entirely comfortable with the version as is proposed. Of course, this entire debacle could have been avoided had anyone other than me or Griffin or Cynic had bothered to comment in the early stages of this debate.

Assuming that the clogging rule is not in the way, I'll try to move it along with an exec slot or one of the slots that I have. I never thought it would get this far, actually, and when I jumped in to defend it it was toward the end. So I'll be more involved this time and do some research to support a new one. For one thing, we could certainly create a national company, and I think the big concern was compensation (the cost of) for nationalizing the energy sector.

[TNF]

I'm not entirely sure, but is there a way to resume debate without having to put this through the queue again and waiting it out, Yankee? I seem to recall us having done something like this in the past.

[President Tyrion]

I'm not entirely sure, but is there a way to resume debate without having to put this through the queue again and waiting it out, Yankee? I seem to recall us having done something like this in the past.

You have some PPT-discretion slots which you can use at your leisure. Right now, however, they're both full, with the Smack Ain't Whack Act (debate is kind of dead on that one) and the Renewing Our Promise to Workers Act (currently in a vote to table). As soon as I'm confirmed (hopefully), I'll have a couple more discretionary slots, and we can coordinate how to get this bill back on the floor.

I'll send you a PM shortly, as well.

[Dr. Cynic]

I'm glad to see that this can be fixed and rectified. If it needs fixed, then let's fix it.

[DemPGH]

The conversation needs to turn toward the amount of money that would be raised and the necessity of investing it and spending it wisely to keep prices low.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Since it is apparent we are going to move forward with this, can someone explain to me how foreign energy companies will operate in a hypothetical Atlasia where our domestic energy corporations are nationalized? Will they still be allowed to do business in this country and compete with Atlasia? Or will they be forbidden to operate here?

[TNF]

Since it is apparent we are going to move forward with this, can someone explain to me how foreign energy companies will operate in a hypothetical Atlasia where our domestic energy corporations are nationalized? Will they still be allowed to do business in this country and compete with Atlasia? Or will they be forbidden to operate here?

I would hope that they wouldn't.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Even if they were able to offer a lower price to consumers?

[Napoleon]

Ill have the estimates if this gets reintroduced in that case.