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  More ballots found in King county
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Author Topic: More ballots found in King county  (Read 12154 times)
J. J.
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2005, 11:52:58 pm »

Carl, I'm not "stonewalling." "Stonewalling" suggests that I am delaying something, which would require actually having some power on my part to delay anything. Do you not think there is any merit to the argument that the state should probably not have a change in administration five months after the first election?


Alcon, first, I have not used the word "stolen" and I'm complete agreement with you on that point.

Second, there is precedent in Washington for ordering a revote, if the result cannot be determined.  There is also Federal precedent for a court to overturn a state election, if there is evidence that there was enough fraud to indicate that outcome would have been different but for the fraud.  This happened in a Phila State Senate Race in the mid 1990's (Marx (R) was eventual winner).

Now, I'm not overjoyed with either, but they are there.  An this point, I don't see either coming into play, but the possibility is out there, unfortunately.
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The Duke
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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2005, 12:52:59 am »

How many graveyard voters have been found so far?
How many "lost" votes have been "discovered" so far?

Sadly, this doesn't seem any more crooked than most big city machines.  Just close enough of a race this time that it might have mattered.
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J. J.
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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2005, 12:57:46 am »

How many graveyard voters have been found so far?
How many "lost" votes have been "discovered" so far?


Not enough, so far.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2005, 08:46:56 am »

Carl, I'm not "stonewalling." "Stonewalling" suggests that I am delaying something, which would require actually having some power on my part to delay anything. Do you not think there is any merit to the argument that the state should probably not have a change in administration five months after the first election?

As to your question: Washington State generally has smooth elections, and as a resident of it, I am very proud of that. This was a screw up. We need to fix the situation, but "routinely stolen"? We have elections that Republicans win - you can claim that the election was stolen if you like, but arguing that because you believe one close election was stolen, democracy of pointless is arguing that you should throw away the entire crop just because one banana is bruised.

We can fix this problem. Dwelling on this election like Republicans are currently is not the way to fix it - more talk about how to prevent this from happening again, not more whining about it happening.

First, can you please cite the post where I suggested YOU were "stonewalling"?

Second, you argument that since Gregoire managed to reach the Govenor's chair, she should be left there, even if it is found that she was not actually supported by a plurarilty of the voters is without merit.

Third, outside of King county, elections in Washington are generally are fair and competent.  King county is another matter.

Fourth, if Gregoire is allowed to keep her ill gotten gains, it will reward cheating.

Fifth, yes, Logan wants to "fix" more elections.

Sixth, if you REALLY want to stop these problems in the future, join in the call to fire Logan!
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jfern
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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2005, 03:50:45 pm »

It seems that this dispute is going on far longer than 2000, which Gore clearly should have won.
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J. J.
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2005, 04:03:24 pm »

It seems that this dispute is going on far longer than 2000, which Gore clearly should have won.

Same problem there as here; no proof.
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jfern
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2005, 04:12:54 pm »

It seems that this dispute is going on far longer than 2000, which Gore clearly should have won.

Same problem there as here; no proof.

Even if you ignore the recount which was ended, it's clear that each of the following ndependently cost Gore the election

- The scrub list, denying the right to vote to people with felony convictions in *ahem* 2006.
- The Palm Beach butterfly ballot
- Duval County ballot
- Much higher rates of votes not counted in minority areas
- Absentee ballots modified by Republican officials after they were recieved
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J. J.
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« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2005, 04:58:13 pm »

It seems that this dispute is going on far longer than 2000, which Gore clearly should have won.

Same problem there as here; no proof.

Even if you ignore the recount which was ended, it's clear that each of the following ndependently cost Gore the election

- The scrub list, denying the right to vote to people with felony convictions in *ahem* 2006.
- The Palm Beach butterfly ballot
- Duval County ballot
- Much higher rates of votes not counted in minority areas
- Absentee ballots modified by Republican officials after they were recieved


And?  The ballot construction didn't violate any law (and in at least one case was appoved by a Democrat and Democratic Party officials had a chance to review and object prior to the elect). 

Felony conviction bars voting in both sates and their have been complaints from Rossi that felons voted in WA.

As for the minority voters, perhaps there should have better instruction of first time (or few times) voters.

I've said in both cases, provide real evidence.
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jfern
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« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2005, 05:01:31 pm »

It seems that this dispute is going on far longer than 2000, which Gore clearly should have won.

Same problem there as here; no proof.

Even if you ignore the recount which was ended, it's clear that each of the following ndependently cost Gore the election

- The scrub list, denying the right to vote to people with felony convictions in *ahem* 2006.
- The Palm Beach butterfly ballot
- Duval County ballot
- Much higher rates of votes not counted in minority areas
- Absentee ballots modified by Republican officials after they were recieved


And?  The ballot construction didn't violate any law (and in at least one case was appoved by a Democrat and Democratic Party officials had a chance to review and object prior to the elect). 

Felony conviction bars voting in both sates and their have been complaints from Rossi that felons voted in WA.

As for the minority voters, perhaps there should have better instruction of first time (or few times) voters.

I've said in both cases, provide real evidence.

She was a DINO< she appeared a lot with Harris and Jeb, and was defeated by the Democrats last year.
The scrub list barred people from voting who did not have a felony.
The machines were set to accept invalid votes in minority areas, while they would reject them (and tell you do your vote again) in non-minority areas. It wasn't minority voters being stupid that led to the differences.
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bgwah
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« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2005, 05:33:19 pm »

Carl, first prove King County was stolen. And no, sh**tty right-wing extremist blogs aren't "proof."

Second, the Republicans vehemently opposed the counting of ballots found earlier. But now they're for the whole thing just to take more shots at King County. They said in court that no more votes should be counted, and now they're saying every vote should be counted...okay...

Even if EVERY vote was for Rossi, Gregoire would still win. Find at least 129 votes not counted so it could possibly change the election.

The state Republican Party said that they estimated that if the votes were counted, Gregoire would only win be 125 votes...instead of 129...

There will always be uncertainty in a close election. Of course, Republicans seem to think that EVERY dead person and felon votes Democrat, which is just not true. Plenty of Republicans do it too.

A University of Washington study estimated that Washington had one of the lowest margin of errors when it came to voting in the country. And for this election, the margin would have been 29,000 votes.
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J. J.
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« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2005, 05:59:42 pm »


She was a DINO< she appeared a lot with Harris and Jeb, and was defeated by the Democrats last year.
The scrub list barred people from voting who did not have a felony.
The machines were set to accept invalid votes in minority areas, while they would reject them (and tell you do your vote again) in non-minority areas. It wasn't minority voters being stupid that led to the differences.
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She was still a Democrat and, IIRC, all parties had a chance to challenge the ballot construction prior to the election.

I've never said that minority voters were "studid," just that there wwere a lot of new or infrequent voters in minority areas.  I question your claim that the machines were set differently in minority areas.

So far as I've seen, there were no claims that someone who tried to vote, and didn't have a conviction, was not permitted to vote.  There were cases in WA where felons, banned from voting did vote (and, yes, at least one voted for Rossi).
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2005, 09:16:44 pm »




You posted:

I assumed that's what your post was implying. My apologies if I misinterpreted.

I reply:

Apology accepted.

You posted:

Yes, it is. However, that isn't my argument. My argument is that, personally, I believe Rossi should drop this and allow the state to move on. From a practical point of view, though, if it becomes obvious he won (I do not think it has), he should replace Gregoire.

I reply:

Nixon won in 1972 by on overwhelming margin.  Many of his supporters argued that the Watergate investigation should merely have been dropped and allow the nation to move on.

You posted

This is true. Being from the second most populated county in the state, though, I can tell you that our county auditor's office has lots of good people, but is still overloaded. It just happens that King County's is the most overloaded. We need reform, statewide.

I reply:

The state rules are clear and fair.  They were NOT followed in King County.  The only "reform" needed is to get rid of Logan, who decided to NOT follow state law.

You posted:

I'm not sure this is entirely true - it is arguable that Gregoire is not the winner, and arguments can be made that she was. Your whole argument assumes heavily that it is obvious to any educated person that Rossi won, which is simply untrue.

I reply:

Get ready for the ruling latter this year.  There is a lot of evidence on file which the press has chosen to not report (as they favor Gregoire and hope the whole thing will just go away if they ignore it).

You posted:

I wouldn't mind if Mr. Logan was fired whatsoever. However, as a Pierce County resident, there's not much call I can join that I know of. He's not my elected official, but if he was, I'd surely vote for any Republican or Libertarian opponent.

I reply:

Good. 
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Alcon
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2005, 01:31:09 am »

Since you used the QUOTE function in a way that makes it hard to format a reply, I'll have to just reply like this.

History is not my best subject, so I'm afraid I have to wing it for your metaphor and may present something poorly. Although Watergate was unfortunate, the difference with Watergate is that the President quite obviously ordered fraud. Did Gregoire?

As for King County being the only problem: not really. Ballots were found in other counties, although in lesser number. Still, some eastern Washington counties found ballots, and are less populated. It's a statewide problem, and just fixing King County's problems isn't going to solve the problem. We need to yet again become a picture of how elections should be done - not just pretend that Seattle is the only problem.
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2005, 08:10:24 am »

But Alcon, there was NEVER any evidence that Nixon ordered the Watergate breakin.

So, under your logic, Nixon should have been left alone?

Also, there is a difference between honest minor errors (non King County) and monumental violations of state laws (King county).

The minor errors outside King county can be rectified by greater training of election officials.

The actions in King county are NOY simple errors, but rather deliberate ly flouting state regulations>
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Democratic Hawk
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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2005, 12:00:46 pm »

Would you like me to start penning the TV drama - cos this just runs and runs .......................

Dave
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2005, 09:02:49 pm »

It should be over in a few months.

Depends upon how long the Gregoire lawyers can drag out the process, and the determination of the judge to conclude the trial.

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phk
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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2005, 09:24:09 pm »

Hilarious
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2005, 12:30:59 pm »

An excerpt from a Seattle Times article about even more problems with the King County vote:


King County election officials said a key document accounting for absentee ballots in the November election was so flawed it was virtually meaningless.

The Mail Ballot Report, which showed every absentee ballot accounted for, didn't report the correct number of ballots returned by voters. Instead, it simply added the number of ballots counted and the number rejected to show a perfectly matching number of ballots returned.

The improperly reported information came to light after officials learned that 93 valid absentee ballots weren't counted in the election.

Elections-office spokeswoman Bobbie Egan said it isn't known why the author of the report, absentee-ballot facility chief Nicole Way, didn't correctly account for ballots. "This is part of an ongoing investigation, and we cannot comment at this time," Egan said.

Way, who was placed on paid administrative leave Tuesday, could not be reached for comment. Two other staffers were suspended as well, pending completion of an investigation. A fourth worker was suspended yesterday.

"Oh, she knows better than that," Way's one-time boss, former Elections Manager Bob Bruce, said yesterday.

In calculating the number of returned ballots by adding up ballots counted and ballots rejected, Bruce said, "You have a false figure. ... If you're not keeping track of how many came in to start with, you don't have much of a check."

More to come...

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Joe Republic
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« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2005, 07:28:24 pm »

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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2005, 11:03:12 pm »

As I noted earlier, this should be wrapped up latter this year.

It really depends upon how much stalling by Gregoire's lawyers the judge is willing to tolerate.

Credible rumors suggest the judge is a mite unhappy by the way King county has been less than forthcoming with honest answers.
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muon2
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2005, 11:14:47 pm »


Stories about the 2000 FL Presidential vote were still carried through the 2004 election. So, I'd guess 2008, or the next WA Gov election, whichever comes first. Smiley
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2005, 08:02:30 pm »


Stories about the 2000 FL Presidential vote were still carried through the 2004 election. So, I'd guess 2008, or the next WA Gov election, whichever comes first. Smiley

Sad
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J.R. Brown
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« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2005, 10:24:56 pm »


And I thought I was the only paranoid, conpiracy theorist on this forum.
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bgwah
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« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2005, 08:28:22 pm »

I'm intested to see the King County Executive race later this year!

It looks like the Republicans will be throwing out another Sammamish Republican to take on Sims. Will King County actually vote against a Democrat, trying to purge itself of the voting problems? Will King County voters re-elect Sims in a landslide again, responding negatively to the GOP's anti-King County stance? Or is pointless since it is King County?
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CARLHAYDEN
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« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2005, 08:40:49 pm »

As long as Logan is 'counting' the votes, Sims is s shoo in.
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