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| | |-+  "Having children is a human right that should not be denied by society." Really?
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Question: Having children is a human right that should not be denied by society? Agree or Disagree
Agree   -51 (75%)
Disagree   -17 (25%)
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Total Voters: 68

Author Topic: "Having children is a human right that should not be denied by society." Really?  (Read 3447 times)
BlondeArtisit
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« on: August 22, 2014, 09:07:58 am »
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A work colleague made the suggestion that "having children is a human right that should not be denied by society". I objected fairly strongly to this because there will always be a case where a famliy have more children than they can afford and demand that Government pays for it. Decision makers in Government are left with difficult decisions to make as there are children involved and are obliged to follow due process in making the decision.  I asked my colleague if a woman has 12 children and can't afford anymore, should society step in not medically but socially? He said no, she can have as many as she likes as there is no real cost to the taxpayer. Hmmm

Its incredible difficult to write a law that doesn't impact on the child due to parental irresponsibility. The cost to the taxpayer is very, very minimal but the image it creates is the most damaging as it creates resentment with people who take nothing from Government but still raise a family.

Is having children a human right..yes...is having children that you can't afford still a human right...no.

I'm to stupid to solve this problem.

I guess I'm looking to find any posters who have good ideas on how to design a policy that addresses people who think its ok to breed but can't afford it.

« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:10:01 am by BlondeArtisit »Logged

Conservatives are round holes. They cannot be expected to fit into a square hole right away. With exposure to facts, different environments and empathy they will modify into shape. If not, their children will. Conservatives defend the past and fight for the few. They are the virus that prevents progress.
King
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 09:20:20 am »
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No woman with basic sex ed and access to birth control wants 12 children.
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BlondeArtisit
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 09:24:40 am »
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No woman with basic sex ed and access to birth control wants 12 children.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728767/Mother-eight-lives-2k-month-benefits-says-use-surrogate-TWO-children.html

she has eight and wants more. she has never worked in her life.
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Conservatives are round holes. They cannot be expected to fit into a square hole right away. With exposure to facts, different environments and empathy they will modify into shape. If not, their children will. Conservatives defend the past and fight for the few. They are the virus that prevents progress.
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 09:47:18 am »
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She makes a profit off having more children, raising them at less cost than the benefits she gets from the government. That's called expanding your business. It's a rational decision for her.

Most women do not have those kind of margins.
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 09:58:30 am »
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Agree. What's the alternative? Eugenics? Mandatory castrations? Forcing all women to carry all pregnancies to term even in the case of the probable cause that the pregnancy was caused by a felony? Forcing women to have abortions? Even the PRC is phasing out that abomination.

Then again, maybe child protective services can find that parents are unfit if the way they fund the raising of their children is a constructive fraud upon society.
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15 Then he laid his hands on them and went on his way.
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 10:51:59 am »
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Nadya Suleman approves of this.
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Beet
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 12:32:45 pm »

Voted yes because having a reasonable number of children should be a right. What the PRC does is unconscionable.

But having children ad infinitum should not. At that point, the externalities to society become significant enough that some regulation should not be out of the question.
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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 12:14:40 am »
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This is a tough one.  If a woman has 12 abortions or has given up 12 kids for adoption or has 12 but doesn't work and collects a money from the govt to feed them and such then clearly that woman shouldn't be having more kids.  It's not good for anybody.  What if it's 7?  4?  2?  It's wrong to me to have 2 kids, not work and collect money from others to survive (as a plan, not as a temporary situation), 2 abortions suck, but sometimes sh**t happens to good people, but you've got to start questioning your actions when you get above three.

But I've got issues forcing people to get fixed.  I've got less issues with paying them to get fixed, but how much? where does the money come from?  Perhaps it should be offered free to every High School dropout?
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Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you, I gotta plead ignorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frowned upon, you know, cause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you people do that all the time.
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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 01:16:50 am »
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No woman with basic sex ed and access to birth control wants 12 children.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728767/Mother-eight-lives-2k-month-benefits-says-use-surrogate-TWO-children.html

she has eight and wants more. she has never worked in her life.
That is the ing Daily Mail, basically the British Fox News if it were a newspaper, it is their JOB to constantly scaremonger about WELFARE QUEENS etc. so Conservative governments can slash benefits programs and impose more austerity on the British public.

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 03:16:02 am »
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Women have the right to have as many kids as they wish with they're spouce/partner, or otherwise. Care for the children should be fully funded including healthcare. Having the state say no to the right of adults who want children is fascism. Plain and simple. And this doesn't even begin to cover the topic of how disastrously minorities would get screwed over in such a system.
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rbk
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« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2014, 07:43:54 am »
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It shouldn't be denied of course, but the state shouldn't give the usual benefits for children beyond two*. Sounds awful, but we can't deny that government should not subsidise an unsustainable population (especially in Westerners, who are a net drag on the planet's ecosystem).

* Not applying to those families already with multiple children, I'm not a monster.
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BlondeArtisit
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« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2014, 08:30:13 am »
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It shouldn't be denied of course, but the state shouldn't give the usual benefits for children beyond two*. Sounds awful, but we can't deny that government should not subsidise an unsustainable population (especially in Westerners, who are a net drag on the planet's ecosystem).

* Not applying to those families already with multiple children, I'm not a monster.

I'm really uncomfortable with people introducing arbitary numbers like you dont get benefits for the 3rd child but only the first two. Why 2? Why not just one? What about triplets?  Why should parents with teenagers get money from the state?

Majority of state handouts for children are not spent on the child or its development.

I would be more supportive of a policy that allowed parents to receive money if they have children below the age of 10. People joke that children use to work down the mines at 10 but they did. Teenagers should be allowed to work if they want. I worked from the age of thirteen got paid in cash but it was great
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Conservatives are round holes. They cannot be expected to fit into a square hole right away. With exposure to facts, different environments and empathy they will modify into shape. If not, their children will. Conservatives defend the past and fight for the few. They are the virus that prevents progress.
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« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2014, 09:17:51 am »
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Women have the right to have as many kids as they wish with they're spouse/partner, or otherwise. Care for the children should be fully funded including healthcare. Having the state say no to the right of adults who want children is fascism. Plain and simple. And this doesn't even begin to cover the topic of how disastrously minorities would get screwed over in such a system.

Actually, fascist governments subsidized births so as to get more manpower for future wars.
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Averros
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« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2014, 10:01:27 am »
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Disagree. Every child born in the United States increases global carbon emissions by nearly 10,000 metric tons. Whether we are anywhere near it or not, there's a global carrying capacity for our species, to say nothing of how we live. At some point the "right" to have children comes into conflict with society's ability to provide them with a decent quality of life.

We take children from abusive parents. And as the United States leads the western world in child abuse fatalities, we probably should do it more often. There is no compelling reason to allow child-abusers to have more children.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2014, 12:05:39 pm »
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Having children is not an absolute human right, it is very circumstantial. In cases of immediate environmental catastrophe or with pregnant minors, the state should have the ability to intervene and create flexible controls (so that those who value children more can still partake in the act) that limit the number of children.

I am of the belief that very low fertility rates are as indicative of social problems as very high fertility rates and that families must be supported by the state at all costs but there are circumstances in which pro-natal Social Democracy ceases to make sense and circumstances in which aggressive pro-natal policies are necessary. Family planning is a crucial aspect of public policy like healthcare or education or macroeconomics and I distrust anyone who claims that "healthcare is a human right" because that's evading the subtleties of the issue that truly matter.

This is probably the only issue where I come off as a very conservative kind of leftist. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 12:07:15 pm by TheDeadFlagBlues »Logged



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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2014, 08:28:09 pm »
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Of course not. Trashy people (yes, there is such a thing, and they are the worst) have too much kids as it is.
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HokeyDood
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« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2014, 12:28:15 am »
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Really?  You suggest that the state should be stepping in and declaring what an individual's reproductive rights should be?

Scary.  Truly scary.
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PiMp DaDdy FitzGerald
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« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2014, 12:35:27 am »
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Israel while it was still liberal and Ashkenazi didn't do it, and now they are dealing with Arabs and the Orthodox Jews taking their country away.
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« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2014, 01:20:48 am »
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lol at people who support "reproductive rights" advocating for telling women how many children they can have.
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ingemann
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« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2014, 04:25:44 am »
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I'm personal of the opinion, if you're not able to take care of your children, you should not get any, and here I don't talk abort unemployment or poverty, I'm talking about not being physical or mentally able to care for your children.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2014, 09:42:56 pm »
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I think if you give birth more than 3 times while on welfare, that should be considered negligence and your children should be taken away and put in the care of the state.

That's assuming we could get universal health care including birth control first.
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 11:43:21 pm »
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Agree. What's the alternative? Eugenics? Mandatory castrations? Forcing all women to carry all pregnancies to term even in the case of the probable cause that the pregnancy was caused by a felony? Forcing women to have abortions? Even the PRC is phasing out that abomination.

Then again, maybe child protective services can find that parents are unfit if the way they fund the raising of their children is a constructive fraud upon society.
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Snowguy716
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 01:06:32 am »
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Some of the comments in this thread really scare me.  Criminalizing women for getting pregnant is scary business.

How about we focus on encouraging small families through education and provide ample benefits for small to medium size families with conditional benefits for larger families (like no more benefits after the 4th child).
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 01:18:11 am »
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Sooo... for all those in this thread who support placing restrictions on child birth, what enforcement mechanism are you proposing?
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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 09:07:52 am »
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Sooo... for all those in this thread who support placing restrictions on child birth, what enforcement mechanism are you proposing?

Don't encourage them to share whatever dystopian, depressing measures they have in mind for dealing with this "issue". 
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