GUN CONTROL!!!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Dibs-Australia and the USA, are, however, very similar countries culturally, historically, etc. We have similar crime rates, etc. Whilst not a perfect comparison, I think it is pretty reasonable. About the suicide thing-I'll try to find the source, but I remember reading that whilst attempted suicides had increased in Australia over the last decade, sucessful suicides had not increase significantly at all. Whilst this is not an absolutely direct corellation with lack of guns, I think it is reasonably sound to put the two together, at least partially.

Here's a url which refutes the allegations about suicide rates:

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/IASR/suicide-table1.htm

For those who don't want to take the time to check it out, the suicide rates in the US and Australia compare as follows:

County                    Male                     Female

United States          19.8                        4.4

Australia                  21.5                        5.0

Guess people can effectively commit suicide without firearms.

But, that's just common sense.

Well, that's another thing Hughento lacks.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Are, a) Blacks more likely to posses guns?, and b) More likely to use guns in crimes?

You can use all the abusiveness you have in you, I don't care. Guns kill people. Through people, sure, but they kill people, and a LOT more effectively then any other personal weapon.

I'm not even sure why i'm bothering. I have the fortune to live in a society that is relatively safe from gun-related crimes, and also a society in which I have no fear of gun-related crimes. Ask a single mother in Houston-black or white-if they are concerned about gun-related violence, and the answer you'll get almost all the time in 'yes'.

And whilst it's vaguely off topic, is it acceptable that in the USA a social group can be so significantly poorer then the rest of the population, so significantly more involved in crimes, including those related to guns, and so significantly more likely to have problems with drug addiction? Australia had these problems with our Aboriginal population, which makes up 2% of the total population. We've dealt significantly with the second problem; the first and third are still at unacceptably bad levels, but at least something has been done. It's also much harder to cope with Aboriginal communities, and whilst I won't go into that here, the basics are culture, isolation and poverty. The third is shared by both, but unlike in the United States, the average wealth of aboriginal Australians has skyrocketed over the last few decades-it's still very very low, but it is improving.

Once you become involved, Carl, arguments get abusive and messy. I will not continue to post in this thread. But it is my firm belief that once you take away all the ifs and buts, the core of the problem is higher rates of gun ownership, and thats why you're more likely to die at the hands of someone else then me. Enjoy your liberty to own a weapon of destruction; i'll enjoy my extra years of life.

Hugh, you are the one who has previously extremely derogatory statements about others (I believe one of the moderators called you on it).

Further, you make allegations which are simply and easily shown to be false.  When these are pointed out, you merely react emotionally, and refuse to acknowledge facts.

Oh, and BTW, in reference to your two questions, the best information available is: (a) no, (b) yes.

[opebo]

but the access to the weapon is what's producing the deaths!

Correct, hughento, but as in so many areas, Americans are comitting suicide upon a principle.  'Freedom' requires that we live in fear of being shot, as well as in servile toil for the benefit of the owning class.  It is a crazy country, no doubt about it.

[Platypus]

Dibs-Australia and the USA, are, however, very similar countries culturally, historically, etc. We have similar crime rates, etc. Whilst not a perfect comparison, I think it is pretty reasonable. About the suicide thing-I'll try to find the source, but I remember reading that whilst attempted suicides had increased in Australia over the last decade, sucessful suicides had not increase significantly at all. Whilst this is not an absolutely direct corellation with lack of guns, I think it is reasonably sound to put the two together, at least partially.

Here's a url which refutes the allegations about suicide rates:

http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/IASR/suicide-table1.htm

For those who don't want to take the time to check it out, the suicide rates in the US and Australia compare as follows:

County Male Female

United States 19.8 4.4

Australia 21.5 5.0

Guess people can effectively commit suicide without firearms.

But, that's just common sense.

Well, that's another thing Hughento lacks.

read what i posted. Suicide rates are higher here, but, and i'll make this easy for you:

WHILST ATTEMPTED SUICIDE RATES HAVE RISEN SIGNIFICANTLY, SUCCESSFUL SUICIDES HAVE REMAINED AT A RELATIVELY STABLE LEVEL[/SIZE][/I]

No other suicide method has had restrictions put on it, so it's pretty bloody clear that guns are more sucessful in suicide attempts then other (common*) methods.

*at the very least

[CARLHAYDEN]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

[danwxman]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

Do you even care that the federal government is gun grabbing in New Orleans as we speak? Of course not, because Bush is President. The NRA doesn't care either.

[Bono]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

Do you even care that the federal government is gun grabbing in New Orleans as we speak? Of course not, because Bush is President. The NRA doesn't care either.

repossessing stolen goods is not gun grabbing.
If they are doing that to guns people actually own, then they have my total oposition.

[bgwah]

Does anybody have similar maps to the one I made for Washington for other states? Dozens of states have the initiative and/or referendums, I would be surprised if nobody has had one that is related to gun control.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Its pretty bloody clear to me that while hughento likes to use "whilst' everytime he can possibly use the word, and 'whilest' he makes a number of claims NEVER CITING SOURCES OR NUMBERS, it is clear that in Australia has a suicide rate higher than the United States.

So, are you alledging that if Australians had access to firearms their suicide rate would be even higher?

Why?

Australians seem perfectly capabable of erasing themseleves whilst using other methods.

Do you even care that the federal government is gun grabbing in New Orleans as we speak? Of course not, because Bush is President. The NRA doesn't care either.

Er, from the information I have, the actions were taken by the Louisiana National Guard, and efforts are being made to find out if the actions were taken with any orders or authorization, and if so who ordered/authorized such actions.

I suggest you check out title 42 section 1983 usca.

[Jake]

Hugh seems to think criminals follow gun laws. Hugh is 100% wrong.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Hugh has trouble dealing with reality.